Is jhana redundant?

[Spiny le Norman]

There is a school of thought which says that jhana is unecessary because it doesn't lead to insight.  However there are repeated references to the jhanas in the suttas, which seems to suggest they are of some importance.
What do you think?

Spiny

[Caz]

The mental abidings where taught by some non buddhist teachers as well.

[lankaman]

I think it depends on the path you take. There can be multiple paths that leads to same destination. In MN second 50 i remember one sutta mentioning about chetho vimutta and panna vimutta. The important thing is there is no single method that works for everyone.

One experienced teacher said majority of ppl are capable of developing a jhanic level concentration. He said if you are looking for a needle on the garden in the night a five watt lamp would help though would take lot of time and pain. If you have 1000watt lamp you have better chance to find with less pain. "kalena samatha kalena vipassana" that's what he suggests. In that method jhana(samadhi) is a tool that helps better insight. He also said the minority who are incapable should not be frustrated they can try the other method.

[catmoon]

There is a school of thought which says that jhana is unecessary because it doesn't lead to insight.  However there are repeated references to the jhanas in the suttas, which seems to suggest they are of some importance.
What do you think?

Spiny

If jhana is redundant, then why would Buddha practice it and teach about it?

[francis]

Hi Spiny,

I don’t think the jhanas are redundant, but it’s an old discussion.  The is a good article on the topic by Leigh Brasington -  The Jhanas in Theravadan Buddhist Meditation.  See Controversies About The Practice of the Jhanas, towards the bottom of the page.

I think most people end up learning the both the samatha jhanas and vipassana jhanas. Personally, I like the samatha jhana method taught by Ajahn Brahmo. He and a lot of others suggest that people usually end up learning both methods.   

There is a discussion in the Samadhi Sutta, Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) AN 4.94

“Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four?

"There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. ….. “

[Spiny le Norman]

I don’t think the jhanas are redundant, but it’s an old discussion.  The is a good article on the topic by Leigh Brasington -  The Jhanas in Theravadan Buddhist Meditation.  See Controversies About The Practice of the Jhanas, towards the bottom of the page.

Thanks, that's an interesting article.

Spiny

[ground]

There is a school of thought which says that jhana is unecessary because it doesn't lead to insight.  However there are repeated references to the jhanas in the suttas, which seems to suggest they are of some importance.
What do you think?

They may be helpful as a basis for insight, to temporarily purify mind.


Kind regards

[Spiny le Norman]

There is a school of thought which says that jhana is unecessary because it doesn't lead to insight.  However there are repeated references to the jhanas in the suttas, which seems to suggest they are of some importance.
What do you think?

Spiny

If jhana is redundant, then why would Buddha practice it and teach about it?

It's a good question.  As a general observation it does seem that the various traditions are quite selective about what they take from the suttas, the bits they choose to focus on.

Spiny

[Spiny le Norman]

There is a school of thought which says that jhana is unecessary because it doesn't lead to insight.  However there are repeated references to the jhanas in the suttas, which seems to suggest they are of some importance.
What do you think?

They may be helpful as a basis for insight, to temporarily purify mind.

Do you feel they are necessary as a basis for insight?

Spiny

[ground]

There is a school of thought which says that jhana is unecessary because it doesn't lead to insight.  However there are repeated references to the jhanas in the suttas, which seems to suggest they are of some importance.
What do you think?

They may be helpful as a basis for insight, to temporarily purify mind.

Do you feel they are necessary as a basis for insight?

Spiny

As the sole and only basis conducive for insight? No. I don't think so. And with this view I agree with Bhante Gunaratana on this point.
Analysis of the Jhanas


Kind regards

[Spiny le Norman]

Analysis of the Jhanas

That looks interesting too!

Spiny

[dhammaseeker51]

Yes, looks like an interesting read.

Metta

[catmoon]

Do you feel they are necessary as a basis for insight?

Spiny

I don't think so. Apparently there are a fair number of people who just can't do jhana, maybe even the majority of meditators. OTOH, clarity of insight may suffer if jhana is missing.

[Hanzze]

Additional that's maybe from interest why there are two kinds of meditation (approach to two "kind" people):

The Method of Insight in Brief   

There are two kinds of meditation development, tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). A person who, of these two, has first developed tranquillity, and after having established himself in either access concentration or full concentration,[10] subsequently contemplates the five groups of grasping,[11] is called a samatha-yanika, "one who has tranquillity as his vehicle."

As to his method of attaining insight, the Papañcasudani, commenting on the Dhammadayada Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya, says: "Herein, a certain person first produces access concentration or full concentration; this is tranquillity. He then applies insight to that concentration and to the mental states associated with it, seeing them as impermanent, etc.; this is insight." In the Visuddhimagga, too, it is said: "He whose vehicle is tranquillity should first emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhana, except the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and he should then discern, according to characteristic, function, etc., the jhana factors consisting of applied thought, etc., and the mental states associated with them" (Path of Purification, XVIII,3).

He, however, who has neither produced access concentration nor full concentration, but from the very start applies insight to the five groups of grasping, is called suddha-vipassana-yanika,[12] "one who has pure insight as his vehicle." As to his method of attaining insight it is said in the same Commentary to the Dhammadayada Sutta: "There is another person, who even without having produced the aforesaid tranquillity, applies insight to the five groups of grasping, seeing them as impermanent, etc." In the Visuddhimagga, too, it is said thus: "One who has pure insight as his vehicle contemplates the four elements."

...more The Method of Insight in Brief

*smile*

Of course the is also a third kind of Yogi.

[Spiny le Norman]

Do you feel they are necessary as a basis for insight?

Spiny

I don't think so. Apparently there are a fair number of people who just can't do jhana, maybe even the majority of meditators. OTOH, clarity of insight may suffer if jhana is missing.

Yes, I was wondering about clarity of insight.  I've found that clear, lasting insights are more likely to arise on retreat, where conditions are such that the mind is generally calmer and less distracted. 
But how much samadhi is required to develop lasting insight?  IMO it probably requires access / neighbourhood concentration, ie temporary suspension of the hindrances, and without that I suspect the mind is simply not calm and focussed enough to see clearly.

Spiny