These three passages below seem to state that one can experience the jhanas with the body and without the body.
And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel.
I am confused regarding you saying that the passage I quote on the body witness refers to the formless jhanas. I believe that the sutta I quoted mentions both the formless and the material jhanas (1-4). Right?
I still have the same question though. Do you, or does anyone know, wherever it is possible to experience the jhanas with the kaya (as defied by you) or more with a mental aspect?
Namely, if we take as an example the 4 factors of the first jhana: "rapture and pleasure" filling the body ("touched" by the body), vs applied and directed thought being a mental concentration.
Basically my question is: is it possible to just experience rapture and pleasure and not applied and directed thought, and viceversa?
And could the sutta I quoted about the bodily witness, liberated by descernment, and both ways refer to that?
Right. The sutta includes both form & formless jhanas. My point was there is no experience of the physical body in formless jhanas therefore there term "body witness" is obviously not related to the physical body.
I disagree with this interpretation. Rapture & happiness of jhana affect the physical body by making the physical body perfectly relaxed however rapture & happiness are not experienced within the physical body by body-consciousness, unlike say the breathing that is experienced within the physical body by body-consciousness. Practitioners who have described jhana correctly, such as Ajahn Brahm, say the physical body is not experienced in jhana, particularly in the 1st & 2nd jhana.
The 1st jhana must include all five factors but, as you know, vitakka & vicara cease in the 2nd jhana. Therefore, rapture &/or happiness is experienced without vitakka & vicara in the 2nd & 3rd jhanas. Each jhana has the factor of ekkaggata or singleness of mind (refer to MN 111). it is ekkaggata that defines what jhana is (rather than rapture or happiness).
For me, I ignore the common interpretations that the word "kaya" in relation to jhana is related to the physical body. However, what the term "rupa jhana" or "form jhana" means is not something clear. My impression is monks like Ajahn Brahm & Sujato believe it is called "form jhana" because of the nimtta (mental image) that arises. My view is it is called "form jhana" because the rapture & happiness of those jhanas arises because the neurons of the physical body have been completely calmed. Therefore, rupa jhana involves the calming of the physical body but not necessarily the awareness/experienced of that bliss within the physical body.
Could it also be argued that, the consciousness that experiences e.g. infinite space (5th jhana) could be experienced in two ways, either as including pervading the body (even if no material form is perceived or felt), or as not pervading the body if one has practice jhana without embodiment. What do you think? If that is a possible interpretation then the body witness would refer to jhana body experience.
Yet, the Buddha in the jhana formula explicitly states that rapture and pleasure pervade the body and gives the example of water filling the bath powder and pervading the lake. So, it seems that rapture and pleasure--even if the physical body is not experienced--are really pervading the body. No?
I still find it hard to believe that the passages quoted below do not refer to 2 possible ways of experiencing jhana. Buddhaghosa, in Visuddhimagga, for example explains that jhana can be experience with just one part of the body out of 30 or 32 (I think). So, this leads me to believe that one could experience jhana in one part of the body and no-jhana in another part of the body. Hence, possibly the same with the mental aspects jhanas. What do you think?
I am insisting on this possibility because the suttas say something similar about the deathless: it can be experience with discernment and with the body. So, it make me think whether it is possible for the jahans too. Right?
I really appreciate your answers and time, VisuddhiRaptor!