Author Topic: Killing is supported.  (Read 1477 times)

Offline BlueSky

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Killing is supported.
« on: June 14, 2013, 06:11:31 am »
This sutta doesn't use killing as some sort of methaphor. But the word killing here is the real killing.

"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."

"But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, 'I kill him, Kesi.'"

"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."

What is your view?

Quote

Kesi Sutta: To Kesi the Horsetrainer
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2013
Then Kesi the horsetrainer went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him: "You, Kesi, are a trained man, a trainer of tamable horses. And how do you train a tamable horse?"

"Lord, I train a tamable horse [sometimes] with gentleness, [sometimes] with harshness, [sometimes] with both gentleness & harshness."

"And if a tamable horse doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, Kesi, what do you do?"

"If a tamable horse doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, lord, then I kill it. Why is that? [I think:] 'Don't let this be a disgrace to my lineage of teachers.' But the Blessed One, lord, is the unexcelled trainer of tamable people. How do you train a tamable person?"

"Kesi, I train a tamable person [sometimes] with gentleness, [sometimes] with harshness, [sometimes] with both gentleness & harshness.

"In using gentleness, [I teach:] 'Such is good bodily conduct. Such is the result of good bodily conduct. Such is good verbal conduct. Such is the result of good verbal conduct. Such is good mental conduct. Such is the result of good mental conduct. Such are the devas. Such are human beings.'

"In using harshness, [I teach:] 'Such is bodily misconduct. Such is the result of bodily misconduct. Such is verbal misconduct. Such is the result of verbal misconduct. Such is mental misconduct. Such is the result of mental misconduct. Such is hell. Such is the animal womb. Such the realm of the hungry shades.'

"In using gentleness & harshness, [I teach:] 'Such is good bodily conduct. Such is the result of good bodily conduct. Such is bodily misconduct. Such is the result of bodily misconduct. Such is good verbal conduct. Such is the result of good verbal conduct. Such is verbal misconduct. Such is the result of verbal misconduct. Such is good mental conduct. Such is the result of good mental conduct. Such is mental misconduct. Such is the result of mental misconduct. Such are the devas. Such are human beings. Such is hell. Such is the animal womb. Such the realm of the hungry shades.'"

"And if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, what do you do?"

"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."

"But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, 'I kill him, Kesi.'"

"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."

"Yes, lord, wouldn't one be totally destroyed if the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing!

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 06:13:06 am by BlueSky »
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Killing is supported.
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 06:27:35 am »
I think this section shows that "killing" isn't intended literally here.  It's more like if 2 family members have an argument and one says to the other "You're dead to me."

"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."

Offline BlueSky

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Re: Killing is supported.
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 06:38:38 am »
How about this sutta of killing your own self?

http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=HJCvh8aWI_wC&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=godhika+take+the+knife&source=bl&ots=fMZF_yRFZ_&sig=XDxdJJZ54focOHtsgt8b8xNda64&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ABy7UdSTOI7_rAeZs4HgDA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=godhika%20take%20the%20knife&f=false

Quote

Godhika Sutta: The Discourse on Godhika

     Thus have I heard: At one time the Blessed One was living at Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, at the squirrels' feeding place. And at that time the venerable Godhika was living at the Black Rock on the hillside of Isigili.
     Then, venerable Godhika, living with unclouded mind, ardent, applying himself, attained to temporary liberation of mind. But then venerable Godhika fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A second time, venerable Godhika, living with unclouded mind, ardent, applying himself, attained to temporary liberation of mind. But a second time venerable Godhika fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A third time, venerable Godhika, living with unclouded mind, ardent, applying himself, attained to temporary liberation of mind. And still a third time venerable Godhika fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A fourth time venerable Godhika…attained to temporary liberation of mind…and fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A fifth time venerable Godhika…attained to temporary liberation of mind…and fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A sixth time venerable Godhika…attained to temporary liberation of mind…and fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A seventh time, venerable Godhika, living with unclouded mind, ardent, applying himself, attained to temporary liberation of mind.
     Then this occurred to the venerable Godhika: "For the sixth time I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Why don't I just take the knife to myself [that is, why doesn't he just cut his own throat before losing it a seventh time]."
     Then Māra the Evil One, having known by his own mind the thought in the mind of venerable Godhika, approached the Blessed One. Having approached the Blessed One he addressed him in verses:

          "Great hero, great in understanding,
          Blazing with power and glory,
          Gone beyond all enmity and fear,
          Endowed with vision, I worship at your feet.

          Your disciple, great hero,
          O overcomer of death, is planning
          And intending on death;
          Prevent him, O bearer of radiant brilliance!

          How indeed, Blessed One, can your disciple
          ---One who delights in your wise instruction,
          One in training who has not fulfilled his intention---
          Take his own life, you who are listened to by the people!"

     By that time venerable Godhika had already taken the knife. Then the Blessed One, realizing "This is Māra the Evil One," addressed Māra the Evil One with a verse:

          "Thus indeed do wise men act;
          They do not yearn for life.
          Having pulled out craving with its root,
          Godhika is completely blown out."

     Then the Blessed One called on the monks, "Come on, monks, let's go to the Black Rock on the hillside of Isigili, where the gentleman Godhika has taken a knife to himself."
     "As you say, venerable sir," the monks replied to the Blessed One.
     Then the Blessed One along with many monks went to the Black Rock on the hillside of Isigili. From a distance the Blessed One saw venerable Godhika lying on a bed with his body rolled over to one side. Then at that time a cloudiness, a darkness, was moving in the eastern direction, moving in the western direction, moving in the northern direction, moving in the southern direction, moving upwards, moving downwards, moving in every direction between.
     Then the Blessed One called to the monks, "Monks, do you see that cloudiness, that darkness, that moves in the eastern direction, then moves in the western direction, then moves in the northern direction, then moves in the southern direction, then moves upwards, then moves downwards, then moves in every direction between?"
     "As you say, venerable sir."
     "That indeed, monks, is Māra the Evil One searching for the consciousness of the gentleman Godhika, thinking, 'Where is the consciousness of the gentleman Godhika established?' But with his consciousness unestablished, monks, the gentleman Godhika has completely blown out."
     Then Māra the Evil One, having taken up a lute of yellow marmelos wood, approached the Blessed One. Having approached the Blessed One he addressed him with a verse:

          "Above, below, and across,
          In all the directions and everywhere between,
          I search but do not find
          Where that Godhika has gone."

          [The Buddha:]
          "This wise man endowed with wisdom,
          A contemplative always delighting in contemplation,
          Applying himself day and night,
          Devoid of desire for life,

          Having defeated the army of Death,
          Not returning to another existence,
          Having pulled out craving with its root
          Godhika is completely blown out."

                                 *   *   *

          In his sorrow and affliction
          The lute dropped from under his arm,
          And that unhappy spirit [Māra]
          Disappeared right then and there.

Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline ground

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Re: Killing is supported.
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 01:14:08 pm »
What is your view?
View is to be killed. Therefore I, mine, self are killed as well as buddha and buddhism.  :fu:

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Killing is supported.
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 08:14:10 am »
Getting the Message

Benighted as he was, Pasenadi still got the message. The question is, why can't we?

Offline daimond

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Re: Killing is supported.
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 01:46:47 pm »
well, the question are how many training did you ever done and how many life cycle to get result from that training, did you ever reach the kinds perspektif?

Killing it's always your choice to be done or not and there  consequance or Responsebility with the choice or act.


 


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