Author Topic: Mind consciousness?  (Read 3149 times)

Offline Spiny Norman

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Mind consciousness?
« on: March 18, 2010, 04:02:12 am »
I'm referring here to mind-consciousness as one of the 6 major subdivisions of consciousness in the 5 aggregates.   But what is it in a practical sense?  It feels like self-awareness - your thoughts?

Spiny

Offline retrofuturist

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 03:50:53 pm »
Greetings Spiny,

Thoughts and (mental) feelings.

Much of this territory is covered in the latter half of the Satipatthana Sutta.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 04:40:05 am »
Greetings Spiny,

Thoughts and (mental) feelings.

Much of this territory is covered in the latter half of the Satipatthana Sutta.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Yes, there's mindfulness of mental objects - but "what" is being mindful? - presumably it's mind consciousness?

Spiny

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 08:40:02 am »
My label for mind consciousness is "the integrator" as it not only accumulates and evaluates all the sense data, but it also creates, combines, reduces, enlarges, manipulates.......etc., etc., adnausium.  Like a turbulent eddy in the froth upon the surface of a river, its turbulent nature creates but more turbulence.  This is what is referred to in engineering as a degenerative loop:  turbulence creating but more turbulence.  Consciousness creating but more consciousness.

The more perplexing question is, "What is mind?"  Some describe it as a container of the consciousnesses.  (I) personally refer to it as a field property of the electrochemical activity of the brain.

What say you?


Greetings Spiny,

Thoughts and (mental) feelings.

Much of this territory is covered in the latter half of the Satipatthana Sutta.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Yes, there's mindfulness of mental objects - but "what" is being mindful? - presumably it's mind consciousness?

Spiny
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 02:46:30 am »
Consciousness creating but more consciousness.

So mindfulness is a form of consciousness?

Spiny

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 06:04:58 am »
(I) see the practice of mindfulness as a purification process.

Q.  What is it purifying?, you might well ask:

  The understanding of, and the contents of the mind.

Q.What is mind?, you might also ask:

Mind is a delusion, a collection of thoughts, feelings, emotions, and other indescribable mental phenomena arising from consciousness itself and as a result of consciousness(es), which itself arose in typical DO and kammic fashion. 

Mind is a consequence of the limiting effects of consciousness as it arises , expands, condenses, and dissipates much like a physical perturbation of mist.  Mind has been labeled a container of sorts, but (I) see it as a kind of a front, much like a weather front, which represents only the first detectable regions of the totality of a consciousness zone, the interior of which is consciousness arising from consciousness arising from consciousness arising from.......ad infinitum.

So, (I) visualize mind as just the surface of a constantly advancing and contracting, dynamic, but interior content limited puff of consciousness(es), just like when you create a puff of steam which appears to have a turbulating semi-spherical shape in air, which is limited by the four dimensions, appearing as a varying spherical meniscus of vapor-air interface as with our steam example for awhile until it wanes and fades through dispersion, dissipation, or condensation and precipitation.

Q. How does mind arise?

A.  According to my observations during meditation and mindfulness practice mind arises from the electromagnetic field properties of the electrochemical brain.  When the brain organically activates, mind arises.  When the brain dies, mind and all of its contents dissipate.  We can observe this directly not only though observation of mind during meditation practice and mindfulness practice, but by paying attention to what is going on between our ears as we rest and nod off into a nap, or into our nightly sleep cycle.  Even paying attention, writing down our dream experience is beneficial in this regard.

Q.  Of what is the mind full?

A.  Mind, like a puff of steam. is full of consciousness, which like all eddies and turbulent masses is held together by cohesive physical forces until it eventually dissipates into the environmental surroundings.  Call it electro-chemical dispersal, or the ceasing of the firing of electro-chemicals across neural synapses.  At the awareness level we can imagine the resulting electrochemical fields arising for but a time and then collapsing and dispersing into the universe, which is an amazing insight into kamma, and karmic effects.  Kamma becomes electrochemical action, and karmic effect becomes the electromagnetic field arising, transmitting though space and time, and then dissipating having caused its effects upon whatever it was directed, such as a motor neuron, or a sweat gland reflex, or just a mental response to an exterior sensor contact.

Q.  What is the practice of mindfulness all about?

A.  For me mindfulness is all about applying what (I) have learned from meditation and practicing mindfulness every chance the opportunity comes up in all interactions with exterior and interior conditions which arise. 

Q. When is mindfulness appropriately practiced?

A.  (I) apply what (I) have learned when awaking, when thinking, when sitting up, walking to the bathroom to take a whiz, washing my hands, brushing my teeth, talking with family members, reaching into my man-bag to get my car keys, planning my day, interactions at the store........."everything".  Every waking action of which my mind becomes aware is an opportunity to improve my skills through practice.

And, as each interface with arising surroundings occurs (I) take the opportunity to improve though critique of the outcome asking "What was beneficial?"; "What was non-beneficial?"; "What can be improved and how?"; "What deserves a pat on my proverbial back?";  yatta, yatta, yatta, blah, blah, blah.

This is what (I) mean by purification.

Meditation is a process (I) have been taught  and use to learn about my particular ever-changing mind through observation of the nature of mind, that is the portions of mind that (I) can observe.  There are some portions which (I) cannot directly observe, such as my subconscious mind.  Mindfulness is the process (I) utilize to put into practice what (I) learn.

Wow!

It constantly amazes me that when the organic brain first began to form in my mother's womb, first egg, then zygote, then blastula, then a complex mass of rapidly dividing cells, then stem cells, then specialty cells, the electromagnetic field properties arising from the resulting electro-chemical processes creating consciousness of awareness; the awareness of not only how (I)( my constantly changing and adapting form ) was to be constructed, but recognition and knowledge of cellular and organ spaciality, locality, functional needs, form necessary to meet function, limits of form, performance evaluation, communication capability, amplitude, duration, routing, blah, blah, blah, those seemingly limitless instructions all contained in the G-A-T-C instructions of the DNA alpha-helix organic molecules of life.  This consciousness derived of DNA then setting up its data collection systems:  Eye; Ear; Nose; Tongue; sensory: pressure, pain, pleasure, proximity, heat, cold; mundane, and eventually ultimate self awareness pathways to mundane samsaric reality, eventually to develop unbinding and release if all the provided equipment is used to its best advantage.

Amazing to be mindful of such!  Given this magnificent, truly amazing awareness, (I) can't even guess what it is like to discover our Bodhi Minds and to have the insight, love, kindness, compassion, joy and equanimity to bear witness to "The All".......fully realizing that we are only held back from such a mind by our lack of willingness to just let go of that which is causing our suffering and to walk The Noble Eight Fold Path.

Scary!  Amazing!  Wonderful!


Consciousness creating but more consciousness.

So mindfulness is a form of consciousness?

Spiny
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 06:13:17 am »


Q.  What is the practice of mindfulness all about?

A.  For me mindfulness is all about applying what (I) have learned from meditation and practicing mindfulness every chance the opportunity comes up in all interactions with exterior and interior conditions which arise.  


Interesting - so what part of your mind would you say is being mindful?  Is it an aspect of consciousness or something else?

Spiny
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 06:31:52 am by Bodhisatta2010 »

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 06:32:16 am »
In engineering we have a term called a degenerative loop.  You can experience this by placing a microphone in front of a speaker.  The same effect takes place with weather front interactions.  Change, turbulence, variation causes change turbulence and variation.

As (I) explained, apparently not well enough, when consciousness first arises in life-forms, it appears to me, or (I) suspect that this consciousness is the first, the initiator, the observer, and the rest just combines from the various sensory input systems to create more turbulence.  Of course all of this is organized by the compartmentalization of the human brain, or at least that is what the neurophysiology folks tell us.

The trick during meditation and mindfulness practice is to allow it to know that there is no need to arise at all.  That it can be at peace, like a still, ripple free cold pond of water.  Peace.  Peace.  No need for any turbulence at all.............................and then the f...ing phone rings.    :wink1:



Q.  What is the practice of mindfulness all about?

A.  For me mindfulness is all about applying what (I) have learned from meditation and practicing mindfulness every chance the opportunity comes up in all interactions with exterior and interior conditions which arise.  


Interesting - so what part of your mind would you say is being mindful?  Is it an aspect of consciousness or something else?

Spiny
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 06:36:13 am by Bodhisatta2010 »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 08:02:12 pm »
Peace.  Peace.  No need for any turbulence at all.............................and then the f...ing phone rings.    :wink1:

:lmfao:

Ain't that the truth.

If only there were no "phone".
[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 02:48:49 am »
The trick during meditation and mindfulness practice is to allow it to know that there is no need to arise at all.  That it can be at peace, like a still, ripple free cold pond of water.  

But "what" is aware of this clear still pond?

Spiny

Offline catmoon

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 07:20:55 am »
The trick during meditation and mindfulness practice is to allow it to know that there is no need to arise at all.  That it can be at peace, like a still, ripple free cold pond of water.  

But "what" is aware of this clear still pond?

Spiny

If I say "nothing" then there can be no perception.
If I say "something" then who percieves the something?
If I say nothing, all is well.
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2010, 03:37:39 am »
The trick during meditation and mindfulness practice is to allow it to know that there is no need to arise at all.  That it can be at peace, like a still, ripple free cold pond of water.  

But "what" is aware of this clear still pond?

Spiny

If I say "nothing" then there can be no perception.
If I say "something" then who percieves the something?
If I say nothing, all is well.

You've lost me!  Could you elaborate? :)

Spiny

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2010, 06:50:08 am »
The "still, ripple free, cold, clear pond" idea came from a quote (I) once read supposedly spoken by Bodhisattva Vajrapanni to those who needed his beneficial assistance.  (I) figured if Vajrapanni was good enough to protect Buddha, he was good enough to quote on Free Sangha.

As for who or what sees the state of the pond, which is a metaphor for the contents of the mind previously described:  "seeing" is but another perturbation of the mind.  The flatness of the pond is a successive approximation of the complete absence of the turbulence within our mind of which we are ultimately capable.  (I) have experience this samsarically, in ways that seem to agree with the descriptions of The Jhannas which (I) have read.  But, like all states described in The Six Realms and Thirty-One Planes, they are samsaric, because they are impermanent, and ultimately dissatisfactory.  Having returned from the attained state once meditation period ends, the stress, pain, suffering, and dissatisfaction indicative of samsara ebbs and flows, much to my chagrin.



The trick during meditation and mindfulness practice is to allow it to know that there is no need to arise at all.  That it can be at peace, like a still, ripple free cold pond of water.  

But "what" is aware of this clear still pond?

Spiny
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 11:35:53 am by Bodhisatta2010 »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline catmoon

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2010, 11:14:13 am »


You've lost me!  Could you elaborate? :)

Spiny

The question was:

Quote
But "what" is aware of this clear still pond?

If nothing is aware, there is no perceive and no perception. So that's out.

If something is aware, we fall into infinite regression. What ever the thing is, we can become aware of it, which raises the question well what is perceiving THAT and so on.


If I do not answer the question, or even consider it, all is well.
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline TongueTied

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2010, 11:47:36 pm »
... but "what" is being mindful? ...

That's the big question, now isn't it?  The perfect response is awakening.

 


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