Author Topic: Mind consciousness?  (Read 3092 times)

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2010, 05:46:17 am »
If something is aware, we fall into infinite regression. What ever the thing is, we can become aware of it, which raises the question well what is perceiving THAT and so on.

I guess "it" must be more subtle levels of consciousness, probably corresponding to more subtle mind objects and states. 

Spiny

Offline catmoon

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2010, 01:26:09 pm »
If something is aware, we fall into infinite regression. What ever the thing is, we can become aware of it, which raises the question well what is perceiving THAT and so on.

I guess "it" must be more subtle levels of consciousness, probably corresponding to more subtle mind objects and states. 

Spiny

I don't think there is an actual "it". Could be wrong tho.
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline TongueTied

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2010, 10:26:29 pm »
That is correct, catmoon.  Any attempt to identify the "looker" causes paradox.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2010, 01:34:04 am »
That is correct, catmoon.  Any attempt to identify the "looker" causes paradox.

But maybe consciousness is paradoxical?

Spiny

Offline catmoon

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2010, 03:04:56 pm »
I doubt it becuase I don't think paradoxes exist in any real sense.
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline TongueTied

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2010, 03:38:54 pm »
But maybe consciousness is paradoxical?

I think there's something to that.  But I think it says more about the process of identification in general than it does about something called "consciousness" specifically.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2010, 05:35:37 am »
My aspiration is to someday to let go of labels and concepts, and to dare to just be immersed in the experience with no need to discuss, rationalize, or to explain.

It hasn't happened as yet to my knowledge.

(There (I) go again!) :smack:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline ABC

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2010, 05:57:41 am »
So mindfulness is a form of consciousness?
It depends what you mean by consciousness.

If you are refering to experiencing the meditation object, what experiences is consciousness.

The breathing in & out is experienced by body consciousness.

Feelings, perceptions, thoughts and mind consciousness itself is experienced by mind consciousness.

But mindfulness is recollection or vigilance. Being so, it would probably be part of sankhara khanda.

Kind regards

 :listen:





Therefore, Ananda, engage with me friends and not as opponents. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness - MN 122

Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2010, 07:02:23 am »
That is correct, catmoon.  Any attempt to identify the "looker" causes paradox.


But maybe consciousness is paradoxical?

Spiny


[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2010, 09:07:10 am »

Recommended reading regarding "mindfulness":

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html

The Way of Mindfulness
The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary
by
Soma Thera
© 1998–2010


So mindfulness is a form of consciousness?

It depends what you mean by consciousness.

If you are refering to experiencing the meditation object, what experiences is consciousness.

The breathing in & out is experienced by body consciousness.

Feelings, perceptions, thoughts and mind consciousness itself is experienced by mind consciousness.

But mindfulness is recollection or vigilance. Being so, it would probably be part of sankhara khanda.

Kind regards

 :listen:






What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline ABC

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2010, 01:44:48 pm »

Recommended reading regarding "mindfulness":

Bodhisatta,

Why? Did you disagree with something I said?

Regarding what right mindfulness is, one must be careful to distinguish between mindfulness itself and its actual result.

For example, when the suttas state right mindfulness is the contemplation of the body, feelings, mind & dhamma, contemplation is not mindfulness. Contemplation (anupassana) is the result of mindfulness.

If contemplation was mindfulness, it would be called sati rather than anupassana.

If this distinction is misunderstood, one's practise will be incorrect and not bear correct fruit.

One's mind will not be be mindful of the dhammas that warrant engagement.

Of right mindfulness, the Buddha spoke as follows:

Quote
Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness.

Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view, right resolve, right speech, right action & right livelihood.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

In short, that which knows and experiences the meditation object is not mindfulness.

That which experiences the meditation object is consciousness.

That which establishes consciousness in a state that facilitates experiencing the meditation object is mindfulness.



 :eek:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 02:20:47 pm by ABC »
Therefore, Ananda, engage with me friends and not as opponents. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness - MN 122

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2010, 01:28:22 am »
In short, that which knows and experiences the meditation object is not mindfulness.

That which experiences the meditation object is consciousness.

That which establishes consciousness in a state that facilitates experiencing the meditation object is mindfulness.


That's sounds right to me.

Spiny

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2010, 01:40:07 am »
I doubt it becuase I don't think paradoxes exist in any real sense.

Maybe they exist in an unreal sense? :teehee:

Sort-of Spiny

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2010, 04:09:42 am »
Why not?  What makes you concerned that (I) disagree with what you had to write by referencing the readers of this topic to scholarly sources regarding the topic?  Is it not better for an inexperienced practitioner to study and an experienced practitioner to review the suttas and to consult the words of experienced practitioners & scholarly Bhikkhu's and Bhikkuni's before entering into a conversation?

Thank you for your reference by the way.  Would you also be kind enough to provide a source link so that the rest of us who may not follow your line of reasoning or you tradition of practice may consult it and read it for ourselves in context?

_/\_Ron


Recommended reading regarding "mindfulness":

Bodhisatta,

Why? Did you disagree with something I said?

Regarding what right mindfulness is, one must be careful to distinguish between mindfulness itself and its actual result.

For example, when the suttas state right mindfulness is the contemplation of the body, feelings, mind & dhamma, contemplation is not mindfulness. Contemplation (anupassana) is the result of mindfulness.

If contemplation was mindfulness, it would be called sati rather than anupassana.

If this distinction is misunderstood, one's practise will be incorrect and not bear correct fruit.

One's mind will not be be mindful of the dhammas that warrant engagement.

Of right mindfulness, the Buddha spoke as follows:

Quote
Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness.

Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view, right resolve, right speech, right action & right livelihood.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

In short, that which knows and experiences the meditation object is not mindfulness.

That which experiences the meditation object is consciousness.

That which establishes consciousness in a state that facilitates experiencing the meditation object is mindfulness.



 :eek:

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline vinasp

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Re: Mind consciousness?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2010, 07:55:47 am »
Hi Spiny,

 You ask what 'mind-consciousness' is. Perhaps one should start by asking what 'consciousness' is. The word has many meanings in English, it can mean awareness at a fundamental level, or it can mean knowing something in a conceptual way.

 In the discourses the word is 'vinnana', and it is used in many different ways. To understand the meaning in a particular passage, one must look at the way the word is being used. Sometimes it means 'soul' or 'self', sometimes it means the mind as a whole, sometimes it means a conceptual knowing of some sort.

 The 'mind-consciousness' that you refer to is, in some passages, said to cease. This leads me to the opinion that it means some kind of conceptual knowing. Look at MN 43 where it is said that one can not distinguish vinnana from panna (wisdom). Surely, wisdom is a form of knowledge? Why not see vinnana as false knowledge, and wisdom as true knowledge?

 Best wishes, Vincent.

 


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