Author Topic: Nibbana Sutta  (Read 4991 times)

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 02:01:44 am »
It's just that this sphere does not partake of anything physical.
One 'touches' it.

So in your view the passage is describing a "connection" with another realm?  Or something like that?

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 05:47:18 am »
This is Theravada forum, and if you want to understand the teaching in nibbana sutta with discussion, I can say, you can only dream about it.

 :wacky:
Have you anything constructive to say?

Offline Dmytro

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 12:32:30 pm »
So do you agree with Nanananda's analysis here?

I don't.

Offline Dmytro

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 12:47:13 pm »
It's just that this sphere does not partake of anything physical.
One 'touches' it.


So in your view the passage is describing a "connection" with another realm?  Or something like that?


No.

Touching the Nibbana is described in other passages:

Te jhāyino sātatikā niccaṃ daḷhaparakkamā
Phusanti dhīrā nibbāṇaṃ yogakkhemaṃ anuttaraṃ.

The enlightened, constantly absorbed in jhana, persevering, firm in their effort:
they touch Unbinding, the unexcelled safety from bondage.

— Dhp 23
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.02.than.html#dhp-23

‘‘Rūpadhātuṃ pariññāya, arūpesu asaṇṭhitā;
Nirodhe ye vimuccanti, te janā maccuhāyino.

‘‘Kāyena amataṃ dhātuṃ, phusayitvā nirūpadhiṃ;
Upadhippaṭinissaggaṃ, sacchikatvā anāsavo;
Deseti sammāsambuddho, asokaṃ virajaṃ pada’’nti.

Comprehending the property of form, not taking a stance in the formless,
those released in cessation are people who've left death behind.

Having touched with his body the deathless property free from acquisitions,
having realized the relinquishing of acquisitions, fermentation-free,
the Rightly Self-awakened One teaches the state with no sorrow, no dust.

Itivuttaka 51
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.050-099.than.html#iti-051

‘‘Pamādaṃ bhayato disvā, appamādañca khemato;
Bhāvethaṭṭhaṅgikaṃ maggaṃ, phusantā amataṃ pada’’nti.

Theragatha 980

‘‘Sutvā ca kho mahesissa, saccaṃ sampaṭivijjhahaṃ;
Tattheva virajaṃ dhammaṃ, phusayiṃ amataṃ padaṃ.

Therigatha 149
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 12:56:49 pm by Dmytro »

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 03:29:26 pm »
This is Theravada forum, and if you want to understand the teaching in nibbana sutta with discussion, I can say, you can only dream about it.

What is stated in Nibbana sutta, like below, is very rare.
Quote
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon......

This is the sutta that touch the absolute truth. And this kind of sutta is very rare in Pali Canon.

However, when you compare this type of sutta within Mahayana or Vajrayana, this kind of sutta is plenty. Indeed, this type of sutta is the backbone.

So, the discussion is very very extensive in Mahayana, not to mention Vajrayana.

With this limited passage in Pali Canon, you won't be able to fathom the meaning.

The only way in Theravada is by doing a meditation. And you must reach the state of Jhana 4: Neither perception nor non-perception.

This state itself is already a mystery for normal ordinary people to understand.

Because as long as you are still alive, how can you be free from perception or do not have perception?

And to fathom the meaning of the no birth, no death, this will be far more difficult, if we can't even understand neither perception nor non-perception.

We jump the step too far.

As long as you do not have the meditation experience of neither perception nor non-perception, any statement coming purely from your intellectual thinking is very dangerous.

Because you think about what you never experience. How can it be correct?

You then need to study extensively from other buddhist master that ever experience that state, like Nagarjuna, Asanga, Padmashambava, and so on.

From their extensive explanation, then you can have some glimpse about that Nibbana sutta, where the content in very rare in Pali Canon.

so that content is very rare and hardly can be found in the around 30,000 page pali canon?

Tell me sir have you read the ENTIRE Pali Canon?

If you have not then how would you know it cannot be found and is rare in the Pali canon.

(I have only read the MN,SN,DN and parts of the KN......I have never even touched or graced my eyes upon an AN..........)

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 01:22:11 am »
It's just that this sphere does not partake of anything physical.
One 'touches' it.

So in your view the passage is describing a "connection" with another realm?  Or something like that?

No.

Touching the Nibbana is described in other passages:

Te jhāyino sātatikā niccaṃ daḷhaparakkamā
Phusanti dhīrā nibbāṇaṃ yogakkhemaṃ anuttaraṃ.

The enlightened, constantly absorbed in jhana, persevering, firm in their effort:
they touch Unbinding, the unexcelled safety from bondage.

— Dhp 23

I'm still not clear what you mean.  How do you understand to "touch Unbinding"?  It does sound like connecting with something - another sphere, Nibbana, The Deathless ( amata )?

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 01:31:25 am »

Offline Dmytro

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 03:54:36 am »
I'm still not clear what you mean.  How do you understand to "touch Unbinding"?  It does sound like connecting with something - another sphere, Nibbana, The Deathless ( amata )?

Yes. It's when the consciousness, being unestablished on all the nama-rupa, is established at least for a moment on The Deathless Element.

Offline Dmytro

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2013, 04:04:42 am »
So do you agree with Nanananda's analysis here?


I don't.


Could you say why?


Buddha's words in this case are literal and straightforward, not referring to the model of conceptual and non-conceptual reality.

The three terms (viz., appatiṭṭha, appavatta, anārammaṇa ) don't correspond respectively to the threefold deliverance (vimokkho) — suññato (void), appaṇihito (undirected) and animitto (without representations).

Ven. Nyanananda's words remind me of one of the deliverances, animitta-vimokkha, - deliverance through absence of representations.
I would interpret his freedom from concepts, in Buddha's terms, as "animitta cetosamadhi".

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16303

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2013, 05:49:02 am »
(Message deleted by Moderator (Bodhisatta2013)

Corrective Action:  Moved to http://www.freesangha.com/forums/theravada-buddhism/use-of-analogies-in-suttas-of-tipitaka!/
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 09:55:03 am by Bodhisatta 2013 »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 06:58:07 am »
So do you agree with Nanananda's analysis here?


I don't.


Could you say why?


Buddha's words in this case are literal and straightforward, not referring to the model of conceptual and non-conceptual reality.

The three terms (viz., appatiṭṭha, appavatta, anārammaṇa ) don't correspond respectively to the threefold deliverance (vimokkho) — suññato (void), appaṇihito (undirected) and animitto (without representations).

Ven. Nyanananda's words remind me of one of the deliverances, animitta-vimokkha, - deliverance through absence of representations.
I would interpret his freedom from concepts, in Buddha's terms, as "animitta cetosamadhi".

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16303


OK, thanks, I'll give this some thought.  I've always felt there is some ambiguity in the OP passage, which is partly why I wanted to discuss it.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2013, 01:06:22 am »

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2013, 09:51:05 am »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Dmytro

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2013, 02:49:26 am »
What Bhaddiya Kaligodha exclaimed on reaching Nibbana:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.2.10.than.html

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2013, 07:21:44 am »
"Sphere", - āyatana.
It's just that this sphere does not partake of anything physical.
One 'touches' it.
This sphere is beyond arupa jhanas. One may 'touch' it, even without the mastery of arupa attainments.


Hi Dmytro, I looked into the meaning of ayatana, and it generally seems to refer to the arupa jhanas and the sense bases - see here for example: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/aayatana.htm.

But in this passage it presumably has a different meaning?

 


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