Author Topic: Nibbana Sutta  (Read 4996 times)

Offline Dmytro

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2013, 10:26:24 pm »
Hi Spiny,

For all the meanings of Pali words, it's better to look up the old PTS dictionary:
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:2840.pali

Or, better still, the new PTS dictionary by Margaret Cone:

āyatana
1. resting-place, abode; source; region, sphere, field, area;
2. transcendental sphere, plane of experience; transcendental state of mind in meditation;
3. sphere of perception, the sense-organs (including mind) and their objects.

Here, the second meaning is inferred.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2013, 01:12:19 am »
Hi Spiny,

For all the meanings of Pali words, it's better to look up the old PTS dictionary:
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:2840.pali

Or, better still, the new PTS dictionary by Margaret Cone:

āyatana
1. resting-place, abode; source; region, sphere, field, area;
2. transcendental sphere, plane of experience; transcendental state of mind in meditation;
3. sphere of perception, the sense-organs (including mind) and their objects.

Here, the second meaning is inferred.


Yes, thanks.  That's a more comprehensive description.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2013, 08:35:24 am »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2013, 02:20:08 am »
2. transcendental sphere, plane of experience; transcendental state of mind in meditation;

So do you think the OP passage is describing the meditative experience of Nibbana ( "beyond" arupa-jhana? ) or is it describing a transcendental sphere to which the Arahant has continuous access?

Offline Dmytro

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2013, 03:09:18 am »
So do you think the OP passage is describing the meditative experience of Nibbana ( "beyond" arupa-jhana? ) or is it describing a transcendental sphere to which the Arahant has continuous access?

A sphere which the Arahant (and some other Noble ones as well) can "touch" (experience) from time to time.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2013, 01:32:03 am »
So do you think the OP passage is describing the meditative experience of Nibbana ( "beyond" arupa-jhana? ) or is it describing a transcendental sphere to which the Arahant has continuous access?

A sphere which the Arahant (and some other Noble ones as well) can "touch" (experience) from time to time.

Yes, I see.  Looking again at the OP passage, I find this explanation more convincing than Nanananda's interpretation.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2013, 02:29:08 am »
āyatana
1. resting-place, abode; source; region, sphere, field, area;
2. transcendental sphere, plane of experience; transcendental state of mind in meditation;
3. sphere of perception, the sense-organs (including mind) and their objects.


I came across this table, which seems relevant to the discussion:  http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/table1.htm
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 03:06:13 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Ananda10

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2014, 07:44:47 am »
This passage came up recently in another thread and I thought it might be interesting to discuss it in more detail.  It appears to be describing the experience of enlightenment, but does it mean?

"There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html


I have seen it also translated as state. "There is that state..." What is subject to arising is subject to ceasing. But there is an unarisen with neither coming, nor going, nor staying, neither passing away, nor arising. Just this is the end of suffering.

This has been fully understood by one who has attained enlightenment.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2014, 09:50:58 am »
Thanks for the citation, Ananda.

This has been my conclusion:  "nibbana is a state"...the character of which cannot be discerned, discovered, understood, penetrated, nor accurately communicated between those, who have had no experience.

Quote
Peaceful, tamed, smokeless, wishless, and harmless,
unobstructed both in front and behind, untroubled,
unconcerned with both past and future, pure, aloof,
imperturbable, beyond wavering & doubt, confident,
directly knowing, calmed & freed, the Arahat being
enters the final state:

The cooling of all craving,
The stilling of all construction, 
The releasing of all the clinging,
The relinquishing of all acquisition,
Detachment, disillusion, ceasing,
Formless, senseless and deathless,
Silent, free, and blissful pure peace...
Nibbāna... Yeah!


Quote
   The Unborn

"There exists indeed, monks, that which is unborn, is unbecome, is uncreated,
that which is uncaused and unconditioned… For if there were not that which is
unborn, is unbecome, is uncreated, that which is uncaused and unconditioned,
there could not be made known right here the absolute escape from that which
is born, from that which is become, from that which is created, from that which
is conditioned. However since there indeed exists that sublime state, which
is unborn, which is unbecome, which is uncreated, and utterly unconditioned,
there is therefore right now made known the complete escape from that,
which is born, from that, which is become, from that, which is created,
from all that, which is dependent and conditioned."

So said the Lord Buddha while adding:
"That which is born, that which is become, that which is co-arisen,
that which is conditioned, that which is created, that which is unstable,
that which is the bridge between birth and death, this seat of disease,
with nutriment as its source, is only perishable… It is nothing in which to rejoice!
The escape from this is stilled calm, beyond the sphere of logic, being that which
is stable sameness, that which is unborn, that which is independent, not co-arisen,
grief-free, dustless, this state is the ceasing of conditions involving suffering,
it is the pacification of all formation! It is Peace. It is the highest Bliss…"

This matter, too, was stated by the Lord Buddha, so has there been heard by me.

Source: The Itivuttaka - Spoken by Buddha. The Unborn Sutta 43


What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Username-of-time?

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2015, 10:58:23 pm »
It is what it is. May be nothing, May not be-(nothing) It may not be what we think (it is). May not be, may not be(not). We may practice for the result.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2016, 05:12:33 am »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2016, 11:22:11 pm »

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: Nibbana Sutta
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2016, 02:19:46 am »
Great discussion regarding nibbana:

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/18/The_Island_-_Ajahn_Amaro_and_Pasanno_update_2015.pdf


Ron, thank you. I have been looking for this kind of discussion for years. Got as far as chapter 2, and already I have read five or six things new to me. A great read for someone as obsessed with enlightenment as me!
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

 


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