Observing the 3 characteristics

[Spiny le Norman]

I feel I've made a little progress with anicca and dukkha, but trying to observe anatta always leaves me scratching my head.  Any thoughts on this?

I should clarify that I am concerned here with direct observation, not with intellectual reflection.

Spiny

[Bodhicandra]

I feel I've made a little progress with anicca and dukkha, but trying to observe anatta always leaves me scratching my head.  Any thoughts on this?

I should clarify that I am concerned here with direct observation, not with intellectual reflection.

Spiny

Just come and practice Dzogchen  - it's what its all about

I'm told (I've not really experienced it) that there's a stage when you feel your ego falling away and all reference points collapse. It's not intellectual, it's a real sensation of falling, of being nowhere / everywhere with no support.

We have been told the story of  one of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche's students who, whilst sitting in the woods doing the practice he had taught her, suddenly had this experience. She was so terrified that she jumped up and ran through the woods.

As she passed Trungpa at high speed he called out "Don't blame me, I'm not here either!".

Maybe that was it?

[Monkey Mind]

Spiny, I don't remember your history, but I recommend intensive retreats. I don't think the insights you seek can be discerned while one is also dealing with everyday concerns and hassles.

[Spiny le Norman]

Spiny, I don't remember your history, but I recommend intensive retreats. I don't think the insights you seek can be discerned while one is also dealing with everyday concerns and hassles.

You might be right, though I can't afford it at the moment.  In the meantime I think I will aim to do more meditation.  I'm currently doing 2 hours a day, which still often feels like just "scratching the surface".
Having said that, I have an idea that developing insight into anicca is perhaps not a bad way to approach the anatta question.

Spiny

[Spiny le Norman]

Just come and practice Dzogchen  - it's what its all about

I did a 3-week samatha retreat with Soygal Rinpoche some years ago.  I found it very useful.

Spiny

[ABC]

I feel I've made a little progress with anicca and dukkha, but trying to observe anatta always leaves me scratching my head.  Any thoughts on this?

hi Spiny

To see anatta, the meditation object and mind must be very clear.

When this occurs, on the most basic level of kayanupassana, the breath is seen clearly as 'breath'. The perception "I breathe" ceases. The mind clearly sees "the body breathes" rather than "I breathe" or "my breath".

As mentioned, retreat time is advantageous here.

Kind regards

 

[heart]

I feel I've made a little progress with anicca and dukkha, but trying to observe anatta always leaves me scratching my head.  Any thoughts on this?

I should clarify that I am concerned here with direct observation, not with intellectual reflection.

Spiny

Normally in my tradition this is the kind of question that you resolve with your teacher. But to try and answer your question, the point that you have to understand is that it isn't possible to observe anatta since anatta is the observer. "The observer" seems to be present hiding just behind the act of observing so meditation instructions often say things like "look directly in to the observer and relax". The direct experience is not so amazing as one might think but rather ordinary but there will for the curious lack of "observing" and it's companion "the observer". The experience will be very short and you shouldn't try to hold on to it. In the long run it is paramount to have a teacher.

/magnus 

[Spiny le Norman]

To see anatta, the meditation object and mind must be very clear.

When this occurs, on the most basic level of kayanupassana, the breath is seen clearly as 'breath'. The perception "I breathe" ceases. The mind clearly sees "the body breathes" rather than "I breathe" or "my breath".

As mentioned, retreat time is advantageous here.

Thanks for the advice.

Spiny

[Bodhisatta2012]

Hi, Spiny.

I no longer struggle with the concept and simply refer back to my understanding of
DO and Impermanence.  The rest of it is just so much banter to me.

As you may remember when dealing with it I used (I)'s, _'s to replace I, and other various strategies such as writing sentences without personal pronouns, but it was just another attachment which I had to let go, which I did when I got tired of it.  Also with the encouragement and suggestions of other sangha members on these boards.

Good luck with your quest.

_/\_Ron

This morning's reading regarding proper understanding of "I am", "This is me", "This is mine."

Heroes die without Identification or Agitation!



On this occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Upasena were staying at Rajagaha
in the Cool Grove, in the Snake's Hood Grotto. There a young viper fell on
the Venerable Upasena's back & bit him badly. Then Ven. Upasena calmly
said to the bhikkhus: Come, friends, lift this body of mine up on a bed and
carry it outside before it is scattered right here like a handful of chaff...
Venerable Sariputta then said to Ven. Upasena: We do not see agitation in
Ven. Upasena's body nor any change in his abilities! Yet Ven. Upasena says:
Come, friends, lift this body of mine up on a bed & carry it outside before
it is scattered right here like a handful of chaff...
Friend Sariputta, for one who thinks: 'I am this eye', or 'This eye is mine',
or 'I am this ear', or 'This ear is mine', or 'I am this nose', or 'This nose is
mine', or 'I am this tongue', or 'This tongue is mine', or 'I am this body',
or 'This body is mine', or 'I am this mind', or  finally 'This mind is mine,'
there might very well be an agitated change of the body or a change of the
abilities. But, friend Sariputta, it does neither occur to me: 'I am this eye',
nor 'This eye is mine', nor 'I am this ear', nor 'This ear is mine', nor 'I am
this nose', nor 'This nose is mine', nor 'I am this tongue', nor 'This tongue
is mine', nor 'I am this body', nor 'This body is mine', nor 'I am this mind',
nor 'This mind is mine', so why should there be any variation or agitation
in my body or any sudden change in my abilities?
It must indeed be because all I-making, and all mine-making, & any latent
tendency to the conceit: 'I Am...' have been all uprooted in the Venerable
Upasena for a very long time, that it does not occur to him: 'I am this eye',
or 'This eye is mine', or 'I am this ear', or 'This ear is mine', or 'I am this
nose', or 'This nose is mine', or 'I am this tongue', or 'This tongue is mine',
or 'I am this body', or 'This body is mine', or 'I am this mind', or 'This mind
is mine'... Then those bhikkhus lifted Ven. Upasena's body up on a bed and
carried it outside. Then Ven. Upasena's body was scattered right there,
just like a handful of chaff!



Upasena was the younger brother of Ven. Sariputta.
For his 'personal' details see: Upasena Vangantaputta:
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/u/upasena.htm



More on this deepest self-deception: The conceit that "I Am!" (Asmi-mana):
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Pride.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Conceit_I_Am.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/I-dentification.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Prison_of_Pride.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Anti-EGO-Tool.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Anatta_No_Self.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Uprooting_Egoism.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Ending_Pain_Itself.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/No_Agent_is_Inside.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Solo_Self-Deception.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Mistaken_Reference.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Non-'I'-dentification.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Input_'I'-dentification.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Selfless_and_Harmless.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Clinging_to_the_notion_I_Am.htm



Source:
The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. Book IV 40-1
The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Upasena: Upasena Sutta (69)
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html

Have a nice & noble day!

 
Friendship is the Greatest!
Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ ]
http://What-Buddha-Said.net

No Identification = No Agitation = No Panic!

 

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Bhikkhu Samahita
Ceylon

I feel I've made a little progress with anicca and dukkha, but trying to observe anatta always leaves me scratching my head.  Any thoughts on this?

I should clarify that I am concerned here with direct observation, not with intellectual reflection.

Spiny

[Bodhisatta2012]

Spiny,  sorry for double dipping here, but ran across the following from one of ABC's references in another thread:

Birth and death in the present moment 

Those who would like to see a reference to the cycle of rebirth in the present moment, in the present life, might like to refer to the Sutta presented below:

""The deep-grained attachment to the feeling of self does not arise for one who is endowed with these four conditions (pañña, wisdom; sacca, integrity; caga, generosity; and upasama, calm.). With no perception of self clouding one's consciousness one is said to be a muni, a peaceful one." On what account did I say this? Perceptions such as 'I am,' 'I am not,' 'I will be,' 'I will not be,' 'I will have form,' 'I will not have form,' 'I will have no form,' 'I will have perception,' 'I will not have perception,' 'I will neither have nor not have perception,' monks, are an affliction, an ulcer, a dart. By transcending these perceptions one is a muni, a peaceful one.

"Monks, the muni is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not confused, nor does he yearn. There are no longer any causes for birth in him. Not being born, how can he age? Not aging, how can he die? Not dying, how can he be confused? Not being confused, how can he be desirous? "The deep-grained attachment to the feeling of self does not arise for one who is endowed with these four conditions. With no perception of self clouding one's consciousness, one is a muni, a peaceful one" -- It was on this account that this statement was made."[28]

reference:  http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarisea.htm#note

[Bodhisatta2012]

From this mornings readings:

Relinquishing what is Not Ownable produces Calmed Ease!

The Blessed Buddha once explained:
Bhikkhus, leave whatever is not yours, give it up! Having left it, relinquished
it and in every respect released it, that will lead to your lasting welfare,
ease and happiness! And what is it, Bhikkhus, that is not yours?
The eye is not yours... Forms are not yours...
The ear is not yours... Sounds are not yours...
The nose is not yours... Smells are not yours...
The tongue is not yours... Tastes are not yours...
The body is not yours... Touches are not yours...
The mind is not yours... Mental States are not yours...
When you have left it, given it up, relinquished it, and fully released it, then
that will indeed lead to your welfare, ease and happiness for a long time...
Imagine, Bhikkhus, that people were to carry off any dry grass and sticks
in this entire forest and then burn it all to ashes! Would you then think:
'People are carrying us all off, and burning us all up into nothing...'?
No! Why not? Because that grass is neither our self, nor belonging to us!
Exactly so too, Bhikkhus: The eye is not yours. Forms are not yours.
The ear is not yours. Sounds are not yours.
The nose is not yours. Smells are not yours.
The tongue is not yours. Tastes are not yours.
The body is not yours. Touches are not yours.
The mind is not yours. Mental States are not yours.
These are neither your self, nor what you are, nor belonging to any self!
When you have left these, given them all up, released them, & relinquished
them, then that will indeed lead to your welfare, safety, ease & happiness
for a long, long, long time...



Comments:
All states -internal as external, physical as mental- are empty of stability!
Their nature is to arise and cease. Neither can they therefore ever be kept,
nor ever owned by anybody... Clinging to what never can be kept, is Pain...!
Relinquishing it all, is therefore indeed happiness...



More on Insight (Vipassanā):
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_18_Principal_Insights.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Calm_and_Insight.htm



Source:
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. Book IV 129-30
Section 35: On The 6 senses. Thread on Not Yours!: 139+40.
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html

One of my major obstructions with regard to "Not me.  Not mine." Is the attachment to major possessions such as "home (especially)", and "automobile", both of which I have allowed to define who I am.  There was an old saying used by my aunts and uncles, all of whom were clothing and textile workers for high-end men's clothing:  "The Suit Makes The Man."  Well, that same kind of mentality slipped in with regard to the car and the house.

I can't tell you how much time I spend on the lawn:  de-thatching in the spring, perforating/aerating the soil, planting seed, fertilizing, testing soil pH, adding lime, magnesium sulfate, weed killer, fertilizer, and watering to the point that our water bill triples in the summer.  Then there is raking of the leaves in the fall, and snowblowing and shoveling in the winter to keep the driveways and the walks clear.  And that is just grounds maintenance.

I could create a similar list for maintenance of the home interior and exterior:  Painting, cleaning, scrubbing floors and baseboards, washing windows.  Fixing what eventually breaks and adding what needs to be added, and replacing what needs to be replaced is the other aspect of home maintenance.  And, the cars are just the same.  There is no end to it, because entropy is a never ending principle at the heart of impermanence.

Our own bodies are just as bad.  Washing what gets dirty, cutting what gets too long, doctors visits to find out what has become diseased, deteriorated, or broken.

Why would anybody want to own something or anything which is so unreliable, and as a result always breaking down.  Yet these things are major parts of what has become our delusional identities.

I don't even want to get started on children and grand children!  

[ground]

I feel I've made a little progress with anicca and dukkha, but trying to observe anatta always leaves me scratching my head.  Any thoughts on this?

Can you observe the absence of a "horn of a hare"?


Kind regards

[Spiny le Norman]

I feel I've made a little progress with anicca and dukkha, but trying to observe anatta always leaves me scratching my head.  Any thoughts on this?

Can you observe the absence of a "horn of a hare"?


Kind regards

Being a slow-moving hedgehog it's not easy for me to notice the details of a hare on the move...

Spiny

[catmoon]

Can you observe the absence of a "horn of a hare"?


Kind regards

Yes, that seems to be a straightforward task. The imputed characters of rabbit antlers are just as empty as the imputed characters of existing objects. The only difference is that the imputations are being carried by a concept that lacks a physical referent.

Or working backwards, if a thing does not exist at all, then anything  imputed on the mistaken idea that it does exist has to be a false imputation.

[Blue Garuda]

Well, there are sensations which drugs can induce which come close, LSD for example.

However, a few times in HYT practice I have returned from the reality of the mandala of the Yidam to the reality of my current human form - and all phenomena including my own body, have felt totally detached from any sense of 'me'.

On one occasion it was actually quite scary as I could not actually tell if traffic on the road was real or not, or if I was really there or not, or whether I saw traffic which was not there or was perhaps failing to see traffic which was there. The whole experience felt entirely remote from anything 'normal' and was more akin to observing all phenomena as completely detached from 'me'.

On other occasions I have observed 'everyday' phenomena while I am in the form of the Yidam, but this may be replacing one self with another, as opposed to being apart from self altogether, which is the first state I described.

Of course, I can tell all you people, who are in the aspect of Heroes and Heroines, that were my consciousness to enter the mandala of the Yidam permanently I would attain enlightenment, so it was quite pleasing in some respects.

The process of P(h)owa also involves the separation of consciousness from past form and from Bardo form, so again requires the practitioner to be totally committed to that process as real, as the actual transference of consciousness. This means that we may epxerience that as part of our own death process, and observe it in other beings when performing their transference of consciousness as a dying or dead (bardo) being. I am certain that I have obseerved the last.

maitri

Yeshe