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Schools of Buddhism => Theravada => Topic started by: ground on July 11, 2017, 06:29:39 am

Title: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: ground on July 11, 2017, 06:29:39 am
For the purpose of quick orientation.

Here are the categories and their elements indicating what has to be eliminated on the path to liberation. Of course these categories are partially overlapping:

1. Asava (fermentations, effluents, outflows, taints):
fermentation of sensuality
fermentation of becoming
fermentation of ignorance

2. Kilesa (defilements — in their various forms):
passion (lobha)
aversion (dosa)
delusion (moha)

3. Nivarana (hindrances):
sensual desire (kamacchanda)
ill-will (vyapada)
sloth and drowsiness (thina-middha)
restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca)
doubt (vicikiccha)

4. Fetters (sanyojana, samyojana):
Self-identity views
uncertainty
grasping at precepts & practices
sensual desire
ill will
passion for form
passion for what is formless
conceit
restlessness
ignorance

One who eliminates the first three fetters is considered a Stream winner.
One who eliminates the first three fetters and attenuates the kilesas is considered a Once-returner.
One who eliminates the first five fetters is considered a Non-returner.
One who eliminates all of this is considered an Arhat.

For further details be please be referred to http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/)
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 11, 2017, 09:04:17 pm

One who...
One who...
One who...
One who...

 :lmfao:

"One who" = "becoming"...

For further details be please be referred to: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html)
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: ground on July 12, 2017, 01:23:02 am

One who...
One who...
One who...
One who...

 :lmfao:

"One who" = "becoming"...

For further details be please be referred to: [url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html[/url])


Well ... that's language. Since words are empty of meaning from the outset and every individual synthesizes his/her own meaning upon seeing words there may arise countless meanings even from one single word.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 12, 2017, 04:25:30 pm
Well ... that's language...

Language of enlightenment is not difficult.

Quote
The mind that eliminates the first three fetters is considered a Stream winner.
The mind that eliminates the first three fetters and attenuates the kilesas is considered a Once-returner.
The mind that eliminates the first five fetters is considered a Non-returner.
The mind that  eliminates all of this is considered an Arhat.

 :dharma:
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: ground on July 12, 2017, 08:04:18 pm
Well ... that's language...

Language of enlightenment is not difficult.

Quote
The mind that eliminates the first three fetters is considered a Stream winner.
The mind that eliminates the first three fetters and attenuates the kilesas is considered a Once-returner.
The mind that eliminates the first five fetters is considered a Non-returner.
The mind that  eliminates all of this is considered an Arhat.

 :dharma:

VisuddhiRaptor, there is no 'language of enlightenment' but my use of conventional language is very much the same that the theravada-buddha himself applied in the suttas of the Theravada. He was applying expressions referring to persons too, he applied expressions of 'I' and 'my' too.
And if you finally consider that he is named 'The Blessed One' in the suttas of the Theravada then you should be able to admit - at least to yourself - that your comments have arisen from the mere desire to dissent.


I have posted in the OP here what I had written down years ago in the past for myself since then I always confused the terms used in diverse suttas and I have posted it now for those who are interested in the Theravada view so that they can spare the effort of looking it up themselves. I have neither posted it because I would be holding the Theravadan view, because I don't, nor would be praticing according to Theravada, because I don't.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 13, 2017, 04:07:55 pm
...persons...

 :teehee:
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: ground on July 13, 2017, 08:22:15 pm
...persons...

 :teehee:

?

I've got more funny words for you: tree, car, stone, happiness, suffering, truth. Did you have a good laugh?  :wink1:


Now let's get back to rationality ...

The category of things is further divided into the categories
1. matter
2. consciousnesses
3. non-associated compositional factors

The category of non-associated compositional factors is further divided into the categories
3.1. non-associated compositional factors which are persons
3.2. non-associated compositional factors which are not persons


This categorizaton however does not originate from Theravada because Thervadins tend to reject rational thinking and do prefer to approach things like the Kalamas did, i.e. by means of belief.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: Rahul on July 14, 2017, 03:37:59 am
Quote

I’m trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You’re the one that has to walk through it.

You have to let it all go, Neo! Fear, doubt and disbelief... Free your mind!

Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 14, 2017, 03:13:46 pm
I've got more funny words for you: tree, car, stone, happiness, suffering, truth. Did you have a good laugh?  :wink1:

The ideas of tree, car, stone, happiness, suffering & truth are not related to 'self', 'beings' or 'persons'. Therefore, such ideas cannot bring any suffering.  :namaste:
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 14, 2017, 08:30:07 pm
Thank you for posting. I enjoyed what you wrote and your efforts. I am sorry for any distress you may be experiencing, and its interesting to see that behavior like this seems to pop up just about anywhere online. Studying it can be of some interest. We can only hope that such who commit these well intended acts of terror achieve immediate escape from all dispute and what they may feel compelled to respond to in their mission. Please continue to write what you wish to share and do not be discouraged from spreading the Dhamma in the best ways you are able. My turn may come too with people like this and being tested and of course failing. I do not think the behavior exhibited is good for a forum or making people comfortable posting.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 14, 2017, 10:01:07 pm
I am sorry for any distress you may be experiencing... acts of terror... My turn may come too with people like this and being tested and of course failing.

Failed already... by imputing "distress" upon another, as though that other person is unable to practise Buddhism; just as oneself is obviously are unable to practise Buddhism.

Oh the tyranny of 'political correctness', which tyrannically demands obedience to the tyranny.

As for my actions here, it was merely returning some jokes our friend Ground plays.

If unable to engage in some playfulness here, how will the realities of the world & life not devour one?

 :namaste:
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 15, 2017, 12:43:37 am
Are you a Buddhist? What is it to be a Buddhist? Who qualifies and who does not qualify? You are the prime expert on this website of the Pali Canon Suttas and have the most energy regarding them, I'd also like your opinions as well. Lets get to know each other, or at least, I'd like to get to know you. Of all the people on this website, I think you are the one people can learn most from by your behavior.

So when ground made statements and seemed sincere, you replied in the ways you have as some sort of pleasure inducing gesture towards him? I interpreted it as being really rude and frightening people and making them dread even posting for fear of having to face you and your way of correcting them which you have perhaps taken on as your personal duty, just as I have taken on this task of replying to you (which is actually somewhat enjoyable for me, and I hope you too have a little smirk and enjoy being engaged by someone of inferior status to yourself).

So yes, I failed right off the bat, and you succeeded as always, but why should we be caught in this mess, I am not capable of escaping it, but what is your excuse?
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: ground on July 15, 2017, 01:33:27 am
I've got more funny words for you: tree, car, stone, happiness, suffering, truth. Did you have a good laugh?  :wink1:

The ideas of tree, car, stone, happiness, suffering & truth are not related to 'self', 'beings' or 'persons'. Therefore, such ideas cannot bring any suffering.  :namaste:

I wouldn't agree with you here. Since perceiving tree, car, stone as truly existing necessarily entails perceiving oneself as truly existing. There is no alleged truly existing other without an alleged truly exiisting self.
And as to happiness, suffering, these ideas necessarily cause like and dislike - at least very subtly - in one who perceives himself as truly existing. Why? Because of being socially conditioned this way.
And as to truth, this idea actually is the main trouble because it causes seeking after something, truth, that never has existed as anything. And why? Because it is truth that is imputed to self innately.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 18, 2017, 03:06:12 am
perceiving tree, car, stone as truly existing necessarily entails perceiving oneself as truly existing.

No, it doesn't.  :namaste:


Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: ground on July 18, 2017, 03:14:15 am
perceiving tree, car, stone as truly existing necessarily entails perceiving oneself as truly existing.

No, it doesn't.  :namaste:
This is a good example where you actually would have to have practiced the same as I have and hold the same view I have in order to be able to understand 'truly existing'. But since you haven't you necessarily do not understand what I am talking about.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 18, 2017, 03:26:40 am
This is a good example where you actually would have to have practiced the same as I have and hold the same view I have in order to be able to understand 'truly existing'. But since you haven't you necessarily do not understand what I am talking about.

This is delusion or 'white darkness'. What is posted here is unrelated to Buddhism. Nibbana is the destruction of craving & self-view (rather than the destruction of the elements, aggregates, things, etc). What was posted is merely intellectual philosophy. What was posted is certainly not a permanent state therefore not enlightenment or Nibbana.  :namaste:

Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: ground on July 18, 2017, 07:59:51 am
This is a good example where you actually would have to have practiced the same as I have and hold the same view I have in order to be able to understand 'truly existing'. But since you haven't you necessarily do not understand what I am talking about.

This is delusion or 'white darkness'. What is posted here is unrelated to Buddhism. Nibbana is the destruction of craving & self-view (rather than the destruction of the elements, aggregates, things, etc). What was posted is merely intellectual philosophy. What was posted is certainly not a permanent state therefore not enlightenment or Nibbana.  :namaste:
Now you're being as fundamentalist as friend Samana Johann. Of course what I post here originates exclusively from buddhism but not necessarily from theravada buddhism. My opening post however originated exclusively from theravada buddhism but even there you felt the urge to disavow.

When self view is destructed you won't perceive external objects as truly existing but when you perceive external objects as truly existing then this is evidence that self view is not destructed. Why is this? Because in both cases of perceiving, self or other, it is perception which indicates liberation or bondage.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 18, 2017, 04:19:43 pm
ground could you try to explain more? Also about your practice and truly existing and all that? It may benefit you or me or someone.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 18, 2017, 06:14:54 pm
Now you're being as fundamentalist as friend Samana Johann. Of course what I post here originates exclusively from buddhism but not necessarily from theravada buddhism.

Certainly not fundamentalist. Your false view was merely refuted based on its unreality, temporariness & intellectualism. It is not possible to live an ordinary non-suffering enlightened life without discriminating "tree", "food", etc. Whatever is impermanent cannot be Nibbana & liberation.

When self view is destructed you won't perceive external objects as truly existing

This is unrelated to what you originally posted; where the "tree" label was deemed to be suffering.

but when you perceive external objects as truly existing...

it is quite obvious all conditioned things are impermanent & won't exist forever. However, this is unrelated to the error (sloppy explanation) of your original post. The view that a tree exists, albeit temporarily, does not bring suffering. Also, the wrong view that a tree exists forever does not bring suffering. For example, if it is believed Mt Everest exists forever, this does not bring suffering. It is only craving & 'self-views' that bring suffering. It doesn't matter how much you superstitiously take refuge in esoteric Mahayana ideas. What you are posting is untrue according to reality (rather than according to doctrine). You are not being challenged here based on Theravada vs Mahayana. Your false views are being challenged based on experience.  :curtain:
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: ground on July 18, 2017, 09:16:39 pm
Now you're being as fundamentalist as friend Samana Johann. Of course what I post here originates exclusively from buddhism but not necessarily from theravada buddhism.

Certainly not fundamentalist. Your false view was merely refuted based on its unreality, temporariness & intellectualism.
My right view is validated by liberation.
Title: Re: Overview of what is to be eliminated
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 18, 2017, 10:08:09 pm
Do you two like arguing about things? I don't mind much, there is a lot of good things that end up being said potentially in these debates, but I was wondering if you also enjoy it. I don't really enjoy arguing, but I think some people might actually like it. I am not suggesting either of you do, I would be interested in hearing about your liking it or not liking it or whatever. Also, are either of you Buddhist? If so, what is it in your opinion to be a Buddhist? I guess someone who has read the words attributed to Buddha in the Pali Canon and adheres to them as far as one understands them?

Also, ground said something about liberation, can you talk to me more about that? Liberation seems to be a very important goal in Buddhism, but does it look like this? What is it supposed to be or be like? Was the Buddha in your opinion Liberated even whilst he might have been remaining in the world and in various disputes?
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