Author Topic: Poor old Kalama Sutta!  (Read 3811 times)

Offline songhill

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2013, 08:13:22 pm »
Despite all the Buddhist literature on Mind (and believe me there is a lot of it), Batchelor refused to accept Sunim’s teaching about Mind.  He said of it—in particular about Mind—, “Once again, I found myself confronted by the specter of a disembodied spirit” (p. 68). :eek:

On the other hand, he's had much more experience than most of his distractors you'll encounter --- nobody's right if everybody else is wrong LOL

Maybe there's a lesson to be learned by examining the reaction to Batchelor's counterparts in Christianity, such as Bishop John Shelby Spong or Mathew Fox for that matter --- neither of these people would have made the impact they did if it hadn't been for their distractors.

In other words, the louder the conservatives screamed, the more popular their books became.

My father back in the roaring 1920s was one of the top ten light heavyweight boxers in the U.S. (his pal was Jack Dempsey). He well understood that when you step into the professional ring you're going to be fighting, literally, for your life (my uncle died in the ring). Well, not quite as bad, Stephen is going to have to take some heavy well timed blows to his secular interpretation of Buddhism for some time. He is still fighting Alan Wallace and others. :argue:

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2013, 08:18:02 pm »
Maybe there's some truth in that when Buddhists aren't fighting with others, they're fighting among themselves LOL

Offline songhill

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2013, 08:59:07 pm »
Maybe there's some truth in that when Buddhists aren't fighting with others, they're fighting among themselves LOL

Postmortem Buddhism is a long history of battles, the first being between the Sthavira and the Mahasamghikas.

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2013, 09:31:26 pm »
Maybe there's some truth in that when Buddhists aren't fighting with others, they're fighting among themselves LOL
Welcome to the human race

THHISS IS HUMANITY...........kick               (the word humanity replaced sparta)

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2013, 09:45:32 pm »
Here's a solution:

http://www.vhemt.org/

Sorry, just had to go there  :-P

Offline ground

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2013, 10:20:35 pm »
Your thoughts?


Don't go by "your thoughts", don't go by "their thoughts", don't go by "my thoughts" ...

Quote
"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted ... Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.than.html


 :fu:

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2013, 01:12:31 am »
I know what you mean --- the KS is a charter of free inquiry, providing criteria for that inquiry, it's not a free pass to reject anything and everything someone is uncomfortable with.

I agree, and yet it seems quite a lot of westerners use the KS in this way.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2013, 01:18:13 am »
I have to admit that I quote the kalama sutta when people ask me about Buddhism and why I consider it different to the other religions. Being free to choose what you believe and using logic and compassion instead of the threat of hellfire and eternal damnation is a big plus point in my view.

Sure, and I guess for western Buddhists who grew up with Christianity the Kalama Sutta would seem like a breath of fresh air.  Though I also think some people throw the baby out with the bathwater in their wholesale rejection of anything which looks metaphysical, mystical or "religious".
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2013, 01:36:34 am »
I know Batchelor and his wife. While I don't agree with nihilism, I also don't agree with some of criticism that Stephen has received in heated discussion, where we waste more time and energy than its worth --- as I've said more than once, no one can walk the Dharma Path for another and maybe the greatest threat to Buddhism is not realizing this.

Stephens ideas have clearly struck a chord with a lot of western Buddhists.  Buddhism has a long history of adapting to different cultures, and western culture is increasingly secular, so I think some form of secular Buddhism is really an inevitable development.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline songhill

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2013, 06:43:39 pm »
I have to admit that I quote the kalama sutta when people ask me about Buddhism and why I consider it different to the other religions. Being free to choose what you believe and using logic and compassion instead of the threat of hellfire and eternal damnation is a big plus point in my view.

Sure, and I guess for western Buddhists who grew up with Christianity the Kalama Sutta would seem like a breath of fresh air.  Though I also think some people throw the baby out with the bathwater in their wholesale rejection of anything which looks metaphysical, mystical or "religious".

I know many western Buddhists who became Buddhists as a reaction to their former religion, generally, fundamentalist. In this respect, they hope to find Buddhism the very antithesis of religion and their former faith. Sadly, they are quite wrong about Buddhism— perhaps almost totally wrong. Buddhism is about as religious as it gets. It's just not Christianity. Buddhism has its gods, many in fact. It has its devil, Mara the Evil One. It even has its own so-called fall in the Aggañña Sutta. The main difference between Buddhism and Christianity is one is mystical (look within) and the other one, Christianity, is external. Let's all wait for JC to return with his angels who will gather out of the kingdom of JC everything that offends. 

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2013, 07:08:06 pm »
And the Majjhima Nikaya (MN 123) states that the newly born Siddhartha took seven steps to the north and exclaimed in a loud voice "I'm the chief in this world, the most accepted and the most senior. This is my last birth, I will not be born again!"

Really, does anyone actually believe this?

IMHO one of the aspects of Dharma practice is to get rid of spare baggage, not collect a whole new set of Samsonite luggage to cart around.

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2013, 07:23:05 pm »
And the Majjhima Nikaya (MN 123) states that the newly born Siddhartha took seven steps to the north and exclaimed in a loud voice "I'm the chief in this world, the most accepted and the most senior. This is my last birth, I will not be born again!"

Really, does anyone actually believe this?

IMHO one of the aspects of Dharma practice is to get rid of spare baggage, not collect a whole new set of Samsonite luggage to cart around.

(MN 123) is actually one of the key principles of Mahayana which lead up to the Eternal Buddha message found in Lotus Sutra chapter 16

so you would be surprised how many people accept that(not just Theravada but also Mahayana also)

I also believe it.

If you don't then that is fine

(not believing in airplanes doesn't make you a bad person)
(likewise believing in airplanes doesn't make you a good person)

its just your belief.............................no just kidding if i find out where you live I am going to fly an airplane into you house heretic  :wink1:

Offline former monk john

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2013, 07:30:38 pm »
namu, NSA, NSA is watching, everytime you threaten to fly an airplane into a building, a cookie attached to your internet provider is sent straight to the master computer, where a file is established with the NSA to henceforth monitor and surveil your every move and action, you will soon notice it taking you longer and longer to load websites, as the NSA cookies attached to your computer ISP trace every move you make on the internet, PS this would not be a good time to be watching really kinky porn on the internet, or clicking on any left leaning news stories, like updates on Snowden or Julian Assange.

This is not the end, its just the beginning of the new digital age!!!LOL :teehee: :teehee: :teehee: :teehee:
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline songhill

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2013, 07:35:22 pm »
And the Majjhima Nikaya (MN 123) states that the newly born Siddhartha took seven steps to the north and exclaimed in a loud voice "I'm the chief in this world, the most accepted and the most senior. This is my last birth, I will not be born again!"

Really, does anyone actually believe this?

IMHO one of the aspects of Dharma practice is to get rid of spare baggage, not collect a whole new set of Samsonite luggage to cart around.

But what if the Buddha legend were nothing but a huge allegory about spiritual birth? Aye Bhante, then it would not be too bright to toss out the precious baby with the bathwater.

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Poor old Kalama Sutta!
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2013, 07:36:02 pm »
namu, NSA, NSA is watching, everytime you threaten to fly an airplane into a building, a cookie attached to your internet provider is sent straight to the master computer, where a file is established with the NSA to henceforth monitor and surveil your every move and action, you will soon notice it taking you longer and longer to load websites, as the NSA cookies attached to your computer ISP trace every move you make on the internet, PS this would not be a good time to be watching really kinky porn on the internet, or clicking on any left leaning news stories, like updates on Snowden or Julian Assange.

This is not the end, its just the beginning of the new digital age!!!LOL :teehee: :teehee: :teehee: :teehee:

 :suit: I once worked for the government      :lipsseald:

 


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