Perception and feeling ( sanna and vedana )

[Spiny le Norman]

The same is with the body, if you there is the sensation of heat you would it would not come to any vedana, its just heat.

Heat is by definition a "physical" vedana ( a sensation ). 
However I agree that vedana is closely tied up with sanna ( perception ), so we may experience variations in heat as being pleasant, neutral or unpleasant. 
But the sensation of extreme heat or extreme cold is just unpleasant vedana, it's just painful.

Spiny

Vedana is Vedana, if you drink a tea with a little sugar or with much sugar it might be differently accepted or rejected but the its still the same phenomena.
"Painful" is nothing but an extremely fear against the "I", like to much sugar, or bright light, or a terrible smell which causes the remember on a fire and you might see your self burning and vedana arises.

Let me try another way. Would it be possible that there would be any vedana if there was never a physical contact before? Would there be mental vedana? Does mental vedana exist without physical contact?

So now you're saying vedana is nothing to do with perception?  And that the pain of a toothache is nothing but an extremely fear against the I?

Spiny

[Hanzze]

Would you feel fear if there is no "I"? *smile* "contact"+?=vedana

[Spiny le Norman]

Would you feel fear if there is no "I"? *smile* "contact"+?=vedana

So you agree that perception is important in how vedana arises?

Spiny

[Bodhisatta2012]

Vendana is feeling arisen from consciousness, one of the six.  Perception is "an opinion" derived of mental factors conditioned by experience, education, and training.

Suggest trying: 

Vedanānupassanā: 'contemplation of feeling', (which) is one of the 4 foundations of awareness or mindfulness satipatthāna..

....for validation and verification.

[Spiny le Norman]

Vendana is feeling arisen from consciousness, one of the six.  Perception is "an opinion" derived of mental factors conditioned by experience, education, and training.

So is vedana dependent on, or independent of, perception ( sanna )?

Spiny

[Bodhisatta2012]

Vendana is feeling arisen from consciousness, one of the six.  Perception is "an opinion" derived of mental factors conditioned by experience, education, and training.

So is vedana dependent on, or independent of, perception ( sanna )?

Spiny

My experience is that it is both.  Feeling arises independently due to contact relayed from any of the six senses to any of the six consciousnesses.  Vendana (feelings) arise from any of these.  Opinions are mental factors which arise from the mental consciousness, which in turn leads to pleasure, pain, neutrality, revulsion and etc.  To avoid attachment to any of these the practice of "revulsion"  focused meditation can be helpful.  For example if we become attached to the feelings derived of physical forms (For the sake of developing sexual abstinence Buddha  spoke about male Bhikkhus naturally being attracted to and then attached to the female form and Bhikkunis being attached to the male form) then one should develop an opinion of "revulsion" so that such attachments are at first diminished and then later extinguished.  There is of course no such requirement for lay persons as laypersons are not committed to sexual abstinence.  The feelings associated with sexual climax would only act to reinforce such attachment, therefore, Bhikkhus and Bhikkunis committed to celibacy are advised to observe complete abstinence from any sexual activity, with others and by one's self alone.

[Spiny le Norman]

This thread is for discussion of perception and feeling, and the relationship between them

Spiny

[Spiny le Norman]

Feeling arises independently due to contact relayed from any of the six senses to any of the six consciousnesses.  Vendana (feelings) arise from any of these.  Opinions are mental factors which arise from the mental consciousness, which in turn leads to pleasure, pain, neutrality, revulsion and etc.  To avoid attachment to any of these the practice of "revulsion"  focused meditation can be helpful. 

So could you say say which feelings arises independently?  As I understand it the feelings are the vedana.

Spiny

[Spiny le Norman]

I thought it might be useful to have some basic definitions - these are from Wiki:

Buddhist doctrine describes five aggregates:[3]

"form" or "matter"[4] (Skt., Pāli rūpa; Tib. gzugs):
external and internal matter. Externally, rupa is the physical world. Internally, rupa includes the material body and the physical sense organs.[5]

"sensation" or "feeling" (Skt., Pāli vedanā; Tib. tshor-ba):
sensing an object[6] as either pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.[7]

[8]  "perception", "conception", "apperception", "cognition", or "discrimination" (Skt. samjñā, Pāli saññā, Tib. 'du-shes):
registers whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a bell or the shape of a tree).

"mental formations", "impulses", "volition", or "compositional factors" (Skt. samskāra, Pāli saṅkhāra, Tib. 'du-byed) :
all types of mental habits, thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices, compulsions, and decisions triggered by an object.[9]

"consciousness" or "discernment"[10] (Skt. vijñāna, Pāli viññāṇa[11], Tib. rnam-par-shes-pa):
In the Nikayas/Āgamas: cognizance,[12][13] that which discerns[14]
In the Abhidhamma: a series of rapidly changing interconnected discrete acts of cognizance.[15]
In some Mahayana sources: the base that supports all experience.[16]

[ground]

This thread is for discussion of perception and feeling, and the relationship between them

Spiny

"And what is feeling? These six classes of feeling — feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling.
...
"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.056.than.html

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

However

'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html

"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

Kind regards

[Spiny le Norman]

"perception", "conception", "apperception", "cognition", or "discrimination" (Skt. samjñā, Pāli saññā, Tib. 'du-shes):
registers whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a bell or the shape of a tree). 

"consciousness" or "discernment"[10] (Skt. vijñāna, Pāli viññāṇa[11], Tib. rnam-par-shes-pa):
In the Nikayas/Āgamas: cognizance,[12][13] that which discerns[14]

Actually I'm now a bit puzzled by the difference between perception ( recognition ) and consciousness ( discernment ). Any thoughts?

CP

[ground]

Actually I'm now a bit puzzled by the difference between perception ( recognition ) and consciousness ( discernment ). Any thoughts?

CP

Either you did not read the quotes I provided or you did not "understand" them.


Kind regards

[Spiny le Norman]

Actually I'm now a bit puzzled by the difference between perception ( recognition ) and consciousness ( discernment ). Any thoughts?

CP

Either you did not read the quotes I provided or you did not "understand" them.

There was nothing about the difference between perception and consciousness - what do you think the difference is?

CP

[ground]

Actually I'm now a bit puzzled by the difference between perception ( recognition ) and consciousness ( discernment ). Any thoughts?

CP

Either you did not read the quotes I provided or you did not "understand" them.

There was nothing about the difference between perception and consciousness - what do you think the difference is?

CP

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

Kind regards