Author Topic: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon  (Read 296 times)

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« on: August 19, 2017, 01:42:08 pm »
Dear dhamma faithful, friends, students & practitioners

What lessons & insights arise for each of us from the following sutta:  :namaste:

Quote
1 At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, you should approach families like the moon—  drawing back the body and mind, always acting like newcomers, without impudence towards families. Just as a man looking down an old well, a precipice, or a steep riverbank would draw back the body and mind, so too, bhikkhus, should you approach families.

2“Bhikkhus, Kassapa approaches families like the moon—drawing back the body and mind, always acting like a newcomer, without impudence towards families. What do you think, bhikkhus, what kind of bhikkhu is worthy to approach families?”

3“Venerable sir, our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would clear up the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from him, the bhikkhus will remember it.”

4Then the Blessed One waved his hand in space and said: “Bhikkhus, just as this hand does not get caught in space, is not held fast by it, is not bound by it, so when a bhikkhu approaches families his mind does not get caught, held fast, and bound amidst families, thinking: ‘May those desiring gains acquire gains, may those desiring merits make merits!’ He is as elated and happy over the gains of others as he is over his own gains. Such a bhikkhu is worthy to approach families.

5“Bhikkhus, when Kassapa approaches families his mind does not get caught, held fast, or bound amidst families, thinking: ‘May those desiring gains acquire gains, may those desiring merits make merits!’ He is as elated and happy over the gains of others as he is over his own gains.

6“What do you think, bhikkhus, how is a bhikkhu’s teaching of the Dhamma impure, and how is his teaching of the Dhamma pure?”

7“Venerable sir, our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One….”

8“Then listen and attend closely, bhikkhus, I will speak.”

9“Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

10“A bhikkhu teaches the Dhamma to others with the thought: ‘Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me! Having listened, may they gain confidence in the Dhamma! Being confident, may they show their confidence to me!’ Such a bhikkhu’s teaching of the Dhamma is impure.

11“But a bhikkhu teaches the Dhamma to others with the thought: ‘The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise. Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me! Having listened, may they understand the Dhamma! Having understood, may they practise accordingly!’ Thus he teaches the Dhamma to others because of the intrinsic excellence of the Dhamma; he teaches the Dhamma to others from compassion and sympathy, out of tender concern. Such a bhikkhu’s teaching of the Dhamma is pure.

12“Bhikkhus, Kassapa teaches the Dhamma to others with the thought: ‘The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One…. Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me! Having listened, may they understand the Dhamma! Having understood, may they practise accordingly!’ He teaches the Dhamma to others because of the intrinsic excellence of the Dhamma; he teaches the Dhamma to others from compassion and sympathy, out of tender concern.

13“Bhikkhus, I will exhort you by the example of Kassapa or one who is similar to Kassapa. Being exhorted, you should practise accordingly.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn16.3

Note: the following is different to understand due to translation:

Quote
"his mind does not get caught, held fast, and bound amidst families, thinking: ‘May those desiring gains acquire gains, may those desiring merits make merits!’ He is as elated and happy over the gains of others as he is over his own gains. Such a bhikkhu is worthy to approach families."

BB explains: "thinking: ‘May those desiring gains acquire gains, may those desiring merits make merits!’ " refers to a self-serving thought by a monk, where the monk wishes to receive offerings & thus focuses on the laypeople making merit by giving to him.

BB explains: "He is as elated and happy over the gains of others as he is over his own gains" is not self-serving but mudita (sympathic joy for all goodness).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 05:57:18 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2017, 02:31:37 pm »
What would Kassapa (the forest monk, opposed and disliked by "just learner", secular and not understanding "leaving all behind, and walk the straight way of the lessest needs"-way) say to the Sutta and to the intent of the citer, knowing his thought and mind?

Properly "Better leave that what is unworthy just behind, as well as the good and right exponded Dhamma. The wise will come and see, leave as well, the fool stay blind and bound?

And maybe he would not answer even such a question, and just leave it leave it behind. Who knows?
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2017, 07:22:12 pm »
...the forest monk, opposed and disliked by "just learner", secular...

I think a mind must have a mental disease to read this sutta and then speak a tirade of harsh & divisive speech exalting oneself (as a fake monk) and disparaging laypeople, learners & seculars. Such a person must have no faith & obedience towards the Lord Buddha, who said:

Quote
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, you should approach families like the moon —  drawing back the body and mind, always acting like newcomers, without impudence towards families. Just as a man looking down an old well, a precipice, or a steep riverbank would draw back the body and mind, so too, bhikkhus, should you approach families.

 :bigtears:

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2017, 10:42:40 pm »
That way alsopeople who act to simply get over and win against the Buddha tried...

Actually my person thought of explaining this wounderful Sutta and tell that a Bhikkhu bound to Patimokkha as a whole, would never be able to come here accross, since the Buddha saw his representatives long welfare and reputation more importand as to try to give some unlucky to escape from their boundage. So its good and well that you be aware that my person is not bound to the conventionel Sangha, no member of any sociaty found in convetions and no support protection, what ever, of any convention. In that free like a bird, but also easy to shoot as one and no real problem with that, having solid and just one threefold refuge.

Meanings:

"Draw back the body:" not appearing outwardly to assosiate, eat and have a health distance with householders, draw back outwardly to of anything that may one let think, he finds joy and approve of householders life. He would sit aside when they eat together, share or have joy together, he would sit seperate, he would appear different and for a Bhikkhu, would not only have a light offence of Dukkhata (painful, burdensome for the doer) if teaching the Dhamma to people showing disrespect, if teaching out of a not only seperate, but lower position, but he would not get in danger of Sanghadisesa 13, heavy offence, corrupter of families, corrupt for the sake of gain, associating with householders. In short, for those able to understand and understand its value. Don't do them a favor in looking as taking side and to be their advertise object for community or single persons gain, like colse pictures, standing heartwarm together... approve such as "our community", my supportive "friend, or being any oranement aside of proper manner of both sides of them.

"Draw back the mind:" equal but inwardly, not to feel joy in being part of a group of householders, approve signs and ways of householder, thinking "oh I (would) feel well to be part of such families. Not thinking of doing them a favor for boundage.

"Always act like a newcomer:" Again, don't appear as their buddy, comerdae or even leader in their ways, their speaker, their voice. As one who took side. Not act like a householder and like a domain, not take any authoritive or even executing position, show and stay one depending on others an their goodness, don't touch or take anything that is not given (from here impossible for Bhikkhus to ever appear or survive in a western/modern country, or internet) enter just on invitation, not to speak of a Buddhist forum) not even enter on trust that it is welcome, walk on, take place and teach the Dhamma only if respectful invited and just as long it does not turn.

Without impudence: Asking for things for himself or his gain, wish is not allowed and that might be water and tonic, and medicine if biten by a snake and some small things else nothing else, if no relatives, and all that is of course improper, and even misuse faith for gain. Teaching the Dhamma, or make gifts, is not impudent, but maybe silly in a sociaty where people find gift generally annoying, prefer taking what they just like and love the feeling where "I can! Be your own man, not a receiver of gift." domain. Peaple of wrong view and their sociaties will find always what is impudence as not and vici versa (remember the explaining of an outcast to a Brahmin, two, three, the one giving food to his workers, while the Buddha approached...).

One might think "Just as a man looking down an old well, a precipice, or a steep riverbank would draw back the body and mind, so too, bhikkhus, should you approach families." means looking down, walk like a dog in fear, or a beaten slave... -> read again, and fortget the dream that a monk is a slave, servant, or santa-clause for householders. That is another currupter of families.

If he sees, does not make sense, enough or burden, enough of trieing the best to share and: "teaches the Dhamma to others with the thought: ‘The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise. Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me! Having listened, may they understand the Dhamma! Having understood, may they practise accordingly!’ Thus he teaches the Dhamma to others because of the intrinsic excellence of the Dhamma; he teaches the Dhamma to others from compassion and sympathy, out of tender concern."

By the way and freedom, by the way of Kassapas untouchable way of life, never though "here I like to stay, here in like to maintain my life, here I like to be part of it, by his correctness, he had the freedom to stay a Samana, where ever he went, on walked on, if "in the mood". No way to domest a real monk, not ever if the whole world would agree "look a fake monk" does not wear shoes, does not use vehicle, does not take land, has no "my monastery, does not wear any sign of a hoseholder, not even identivication references, does not have sponsering, conventional supporters, does not cling for family, kin and has not even students, does not smile, does not great, does not make anyone a favor, just arrognant.

Be well and way you have success in your desire after gaining slaves, servants, social-workers and fighter for your householder-rights and Santa-Clauses, who take yo on your legs, tell you how good you are and give you your ordered present in robes, there are plenty, even so, you need to pay them somehow, so still will be difficult, even to greedy for a wordily deal... If that is all what you like an feel as highest, find your desired happiness, my person likes to wish you even a slaves servant... that you neither must feed, nor pay, nor look after him but, oh yes just one Santa-Clause for everyone for the whole modern Buddhist world from all of the heart.

Just one thing to know, the Sangha may turnover the bowl for people who:

strives for the bhikkhus' material loss,
strives for the bhikkhus' detriment,
strives for the bhikkhus' non-residence (i.e., so that they can't live in a certain place),
insults and reviles bhikkhus,
causes bhikkhus to split from bhikkhus;
speaks in dispraise of the Buddha,
speaks in dispraise of the Dhamma,
speaks in dispraise of the Saṅgha.

Alltough a fool might not be touched or even seek revenge, it would could for the whole family, near, and dependent, just that one does not get in the danger to meet never a good and straight Bhikkhu, or even loses the chance to do merits of much benefits. Don't worry, the lay people serving monks would never do such, and if a"just" Samana" is touched, might do such, don' worry, he first has no counting voice in the Sangha, could never be the reason for them and also in regard of him, he did not slighty ever thought to get anything, either in advanced, not by nature in return, for sharing some Dhamma. He is fine and lives good and secure which just vipaka of his kamma an prepared and at ease to receive even pain of old wrong deeds. Vinaya is the only protector and one walks as secure as ones past and present let it possible be.

So, that was long, but makes one feel good, to have told what one thinks "that might be useful for some, and to show clear, no signs of approve for what has to be blamed and to have praised of what should be praised, makes one really out of thoughts of bad conscious, not for defent what has been left behind, but that nothing has been taken withone, that could have been given for posdible benefit of some.

Althought the old wish of the old community here will not easy come true, that ever a good, not to speak one of much reputation, known, or with personal followers he maintain, Monk will ever teach here, my person wishes everybody to meet and be able to come in touch, make merits and proper assosiate with the good monks, seeks after them and get not totally cut of Uppanissaya. At least you get for anybody different perceiveable "Ajahn" Hanzze for a while. ( :teehee: was it, and so migh stay it, for some or all) So only just that much. How ever, may his bad sample be of benefit for all and may it had helped to receive and gain better and real Monks (what ever the community desire, and everyone.

May person understands people who know him well when saying "but why always so dramatically?" Some needed and used to shows and TV, there is no other chance to transport things like adult people and elders, not even the need to talk, but just by a slight gestic or even more subtile, they are ised to hammers, much salt, much sugar and not on a level of subtiler sensibility. One would dy there while all around look, eat, and are shocked "look at the poor" and time later feel much bad conscious, when short awake. So either do not cross such land, or take on some they possibly could see, yet of cause they are also used to say: "ay, thats just a movie, relex. Come, lets look the next."

Ok, before becoming an Art-Margistra... distance is good. Best wishes all, including the "bad enemies" and dark or angry looking one, you will make your best and my person trusts in you goodness, past merits, the Mohayanis would say in you Buddha-Nature and the Theravadins would say "Oh, he's a Mahayani!"

Mudita


(Some wonderfull Suttas got (made attentive of having got by Dhamma given in ways of Dhamma) by Element, whether with good-will or ill-will, and so less time left to translate... and dedicate it the Sangha of Bhikkhus, the great field of merits in this world, to stay possible good prevented for long, long time, for the benefit of many.)

« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 10:49:16 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2017, 11:46:34 pm »

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2017, 10:36:46 am »
Maybe you two should get a room somewhere.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 12:02:42 pm »
Maybe you two should get a room somewhere.

 :teehee: :hug:

Offline Pixie

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2017, 12:32:03 pm »
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 12:36:58 pm by Pixie »
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 05:49:30 pm »
Quote
Candūpama Sutta: Comparable to the Moon

Thus I heard. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery of Anāthapiṇḍikassa, in Jeta's grove in Sāvatthi. There the Blessed One addressed the Bhikkhus:

"Bhikkhus, approach families comparable to the moon: good retired with body and mind, ever retentive like a newcomer families unobtrusive.

"Like a man looking down at a decayed well, an escarp, or a steep riverbank, would retire his body and mind, so too, Bhikkhus, should you always compareable to the moon, good retired with body and mind, approach families, retentive like a newcomer families unobtrusive.

"Kassapa, Bhikkhus, approches families compareable to the moon: good retired with body and mind, ever retentive like a newcomer families unobtrusive.

"Now what do you think, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu of what kind is ready to approach families?"

"Venerable Sir, the techings are rooted in the Blessed One, leaded by the Blessed One, having the Blessed One as protector. It would be good if the Blessed One would make the meaning delightful clear. Learned by the Blessed One, the Bhikkhus will bear it in mind."

Then the Blessed One waved the hand in the air: "Just as, Bhikkhus, this hand is not hold, not seized, not imprisoned in the air, even so, Bhikkhus, a families approaching Bhikkhus mind, whatever, does not get hold, seized, nor imprisoned admidst families: 'Let those, being selfish and given to gain, be selfish and given to gain, let those, being given to merits, do merits', and what ever he gains he is pleased and joyful, so as with what others gain he is pleased and joyful, like this, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu ready to approach families.

"Kassapa, Bhikkhus, approaches families with a mind that does not get hold, seized, nor imprisoned admidst families (,thinking:) 'Let those, being selfish and given to gain, be selfish and given to gain, let those, being given to merits, do merits', and what ever he gains he is pleased and joyful, so as with what others gain he is pleased and joyful.

"What do you think, Bhikkhus, what kind of Bhikkhu is giving teaching on Dhamma impurely, and what kind of Bhikkhu is giving teaching on Dhamma purely?"

"Venerable Sir, the techings are rooted in the Blessed One, leaded by the Blessed One, having the Blessed One as protector. It would be good if the Blessed One would make the meaning delightful clear. Learned by the Blessed One, the Bhikkhus will bear it in mind."

"Then, Bhikkhus, listen and pay close attention, I will speak."

"Yes, venerable Sir," the Bhikkhus replayed to the Blessed One. The Blessed One spoke thus:

"There is the case, Bhikkhus, that a Bhikkhu teaches the Dhamma, thinking: 'Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me. Having learned my Dhamma, may they be settled in believe in it. Having been settled in believe in it, may they show their settlement in believe," this is a kind of Bhikkhu, Bhikkhus, who is giving teaching on Dhamma impurely.

"There is the case, Bhikkhus, that a Bhikkhu teaches the Dhamma, thinking: 'The Dhamma of the Blessed One is well taught, direct visible, timeless, inviting to come and see, appropriate, to be self-experianced by the wise. Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me. Having learned the Dhamma, may they understand. Having understood the Dhamma, may they practice accordingly.' So he teaches the Dhamma because of the excellence nature of the Dhamma; he teaches the Dhamma out of compassion and kindness, out of pity. This is a kind of Bhikkhu, Bhikkhus, who is giving teaching on Dhamma purely.

"Kassapa, Bhikkhus, teaches the Dhamma, thinking: 'The Dhamma of the Blessed One is well taught, direct visible, timeless, inviting to come and see, appropriate, to be self-experianced by the wise. Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me. Having learned the Dhamma, may they understand. Having understood the Dhamma, may they practice accordingly.' He teaches the Dhamma because of the excellence nature of the Dhamma; he teaches the Dhamma out of compassion and kindness, out of pity.

"Bhikkhus, I advice you by the sample of Kassapa, or one who is similar to Kassapa's kind. Being adviced, you should practice in this way.

Given as Dhamma gift, not for commercial purpose or othe wordily gains.

Anumodana!
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 05:57:53 pm »
Quote
1 At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, you should approach families like the moon—  drawing back the body and mind, always acting like newcomers, without impudence towards families. Just as a man looking down an old well, a precipice, or a steep riverbank would draw back the body and mind, so too, bhikkhus, should you approach families.

To me, this sutta is teaching the monk to develop appropriate boundaries with lay people; to avoid being overly intrusive & demanding.

 :buddha:

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 08:20:10 pm »
Yes, Nyom. Not only not overly but not intrusive (in regard of) & demanding. Teaching the Dhamma for what ever wordily gain, neither will transport it nor is it of any benefit.
The only reason why a monk aproaches families aside of teaching the Dhamma, would be out of compassion, giving those who are willing and can, the possibility to make merits. If one knows a Kassapa, he/she will fast find out, that such is not easy, impossible if do not have certain upanissaya.

For lay people, to come known of this, it's maybe a bliss, since they are used to be corrupted by their monks, believing "only eating on one table, the same food" we can trust. And it also reminds that is always ones own choice to make merits or to use situations for gain, even dig pitfalls all along.

Not to speak that Dhamma is not thought for demanting "you should...", "as this, I have he right..." but to hardily reflect for oneself, looking at the moon and those point on it, like a mirror, so that desire to become oneself like the moon increases or joy about it lifts the mind.

Mudita
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 01:56:32 am »
Yes, Nyom. Not only not overly but not intrusive (in regard of) & demanding.

Nyom Haanze. If this is true, why does not Samana Johann practise this?

Quote
The only reason why a monk aproaches families aside of teaching the Dhamma, would be out of compassion...

No, Nyom. A monk approaches families with humility & gratitude for alms food & medicine.

 :curtain:



Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 02:37:08 am »
That might be the common believe of those who are after gain, those who are wise an know why they come accross an Kassapa, use their auspicious chance.
And yes, a Kassapa would "feel" nevertheless,either karuna or mudita, but stay's merely untouched in regard of the givers or takers deed, specially when no possible way.

One is really on the wrong lane, when thinking a normal beggar approaches, and one is even in wordily manners on the wrong lane, has no chance doing even merits there, when giving an normal beggar from above, demanting bligationfor his deed.

Having made hunger an end, don't cling to anything in this world, why should a Kassapa beg for alms?

One may wait long, very long, and that is not a matter of conceit, but a matter of no condition and cource.

One on the path, as long as not an Arahat, makes of cource plenty on depts, but that's the receivers problem, the actor get's the wage, and might it a confused thought.

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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 01:31:39 pm »
One on the path, as long as not an Arahat, makes of cource plenty on depts, but that's the receivers problem, the actor get's the wage, and might it a confused thought.

The Buddha taught to be grateful for every gift.

You seem to not understand the suttas, which include accounts of lay people expelling monks from their community.

If a monk or nun shows a lack of gratitude when I give them alms food, I consider expelling them (which I have done before).

Your problem is you roam around Cambodia among ignorant superstitious people.

In Thailand, there is a wrong attitude many monks have that going on alms is doing the lay person a favour.


Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Sutta study: SN 16:3 Like The Moon
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 02:08:18 pm »
One on the path, as long as not an Arahat, makes of cource plenty on depts, but that's the receivers problem, the actor get's the wage, and might it a confused thought.

The Buddha taught to be grateful for every gift.

You seem to not understand the suttas, which include accounts of lay people expelling monks from their community. [/url]

Drawn back with body and mind, how could a monk be part of your community. It seems that Nyom Element, like most lay preacher, think on domastic relations, where monks and nuns do what the boss says. Yes such relations are many, but against such, the Buddha gave for example "like the moon" to prevent form Sanghadisesa 13, at least.

If a monk or nun shows a lack of gratitude when I give them alms food, I consider expelling them (which I have done before).
My person is sure that Element has performed a lot of very bad kamma, that is why he fight like a child against effect and causes law and amasses more and more, leads other to do as well.

Your problem is you roam around Cambodia among ignorant superstitious people.
Not knowing about gratitude and modersty, a not so wise constantly beats the special and honores the ordinary (himself)

In Thailand, there is a wrong attitude many monks have that going on alms is doing the lay person a favour.
That's actually what the Buddha told as well and why he praised and encouraged to going for alms and don't go after a king or householders livelihood.
Seems that Dhammadathu is very very far from the tradition of the Noble One, uninformed and driven by strong wrong view, not knowing of what is foremost and what for behind.

He might have a long time traumata, not getting other ways understood, thinking in values of amassing, nicca (so is it) and gain.
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