Author Topic: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong  (Read 2471 times)

Offline Hanzze

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2012, 10:08:38 pm »
Quote
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. Dhp 72
*smile*

Offline Pixie

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 12:39:31 am »
This topic was started by Retrofuturism at  Dhamma Wheel on Sunday.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 01:00:11 am by Pixie »
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Yeshe

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 01:27:01 am »
Ah, that explains much here. ;)

There is an Element of internal contradiction here in using an intellectual intepretation of the suttas to deny that other people's intellectual interpretation is contradictory/off topic etc.

'Jati' was mentioned very early on this time, but the OP's interpretation and single-minded focus upon it and denial of post-mortem rebirth does tend in the end to end up in locked threads, or even bans, especially on either Dhamma Wheel or Dharma Wheel. Here, I can think of at least one member who will respond.............respond............and respond with infinite patience.  LOL :)

Sadly, I am entering retreat for a while and won't be contributing here, so good luck guys. ;)


Offline Hanzze

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 02:02:26 am »
Sadly? *smile* May it be fruitful!

Offline ABC

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 02:42:16 am »
Sadly, I am entering retreat for a while and won't be contributing here, so good luck guys. ;)


Right view is the forerunner. It is necessary for relinquishment (rather than the taint of becoming).  About meditation, Buddha taught:

Quote
There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html


:om:
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:31:14 am by ABC »
Therefore, Ananda, engage with me friends and not as opponents. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness - MN 122

Offline ABC

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 03:23:33 am »
...denial of post-mortem rebirth...

in reference to the Samma Ditthi sutta raised in this thread, it states about the taints (fermentations: effluents: asava):

Quote
There are these three fermentations: the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of fermentation is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html


about the taints (effluents), the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta states:

Quote
And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions [of becoming]? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

Therefore, an "exacting" or literal interpretation of the suttas appears to lead to the conclusion that the view of post-mortem rebirth leads to the arising (not cessation) of the taint of becoming and is thus not the way of practice leading to the cessation of fermentation.

Metta  :dharma:
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:45:34 am by ABC »
Therefore, Ananda, engage with me friends and not as opponents. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness - MN 122

Offline ABC

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 03:33:06 am »
This topic was started by Retrofuturism at  Dhamma Wheel on Sunday.

'Retrofuturism' sounds like a new religion.  :teehee:
Therefore, Ananda, engage with me friends and not as opponents. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness - MN 122

Offline ground

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 08:24:47 pm »
Some people's understanding of the Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong is wrong.
 :wink1:

Offline Hanzze

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 08:33:23 pm »
I thought to post the sutta, I had given just a link before:

Quote
Unpleasant talk

Bhikkhus, five kinds of talks are unpleasant varying from person to person. What five?

Bhikkhus, a talk on faith is unpleasant to one without faith,. a talk on virtues is unpleasant to an unvirtuous, a talk on learnedness is unpleasant to one without learning, a talk on benevolence is unpleasant to a miser, a talk on wisdom is unpleasant to a stupid.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on faith unpleasant to one without faith?

Bhikkhus, one without faith hearing a talk on faith becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of faith in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of faith. Therefore to one without faith a talk on faith is unpleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on virtues unpleasant to an unvirtuous?

Bhikkhus, an unvirtuous one hearing a talk on virtues becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of virtues in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of virtues. Therefore to one without virtues a talk on virtues is unpleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on learnedness unpleasant to one without learning?

Bhikkhus, one without learning hearing a talk on learning becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of learning in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of learnedness. Therefore to one without learnedness a talk on learnedness is unpleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on benevolence unpleasant to a miser?

Bhikkhus, a miser hearing a talk on benevolence becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of benevolence in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of benevolence. Therefore to a miser a talk on benevolence is unpleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on wisdom unpleasant to a stupid?

Bhikkhus, a stupid one hearing a talk on wisdom becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of wisdom in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of wisdom. Therefore to a stupid a talk on wisdom is unpleasant.

Bhikkhus, five kinds of talks are pleasant varying from person to person. What five?

Bhikkhus, a talk on faith is pleasant to one with faith,. a talk on virtues is pleasant to a virtuous, a talk on learnedness is pleasant to one with learning, a talk on benevolence is pleasant to a benevolent one, a talk on wisdom is pleasant to a wise one.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on faith pleasant to one with faith?

Bhikkhus, one with faith hearing a talk on faith does not become ill tempered or angry does not retort angrily or show aversion. What is the reason? He sees the attainment of faith in him and experiences joy and delight on account of faith. Therefore to one with faith a talk on faith is pleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on virtues pleasant to a virtuous?

Bhikkhus, a virtuous one hearing a talk on virtues does not become ill tempered or angry, does not retort angrily or show aversion. What is the reason? He sees the attainment of virtues in him and experience joy and delight on account of virtues. Therefore to one with virtues a talk on virtues is pleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on learnedness pleasant to one with learning?

Bhikkhus, one with learning hearing a talk on learning does not become ill tempered or angry, does not retort angrily or show aversion. What is the reason? He sees the attainment of learning in him and experiences joy and delight on account of learnedness. Therefore to one with learnedness a talk on learnedness is pleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on benevolence pleasant to a benevolent one?

Bhikkhus, a benevolent one hearing a talk on benevolence does not become ill tempered or angry, does not retort angrily and show aversion. What is the reason? He sees the attainment of benevolence in him and experiences joy and delight on account of benevolence. Therefore to a benevolent one a talk on benevolence is pleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on wisdom pleasant to a wise one?

Bhikkhus, a wise one hearing a talk on wisdom does not become ill tempered or angry, does not retort angrily or show aversion. What is the reason? He sees the attainment of wisdom in him and experiences joy and delight on account of wisdom. Therefore to a wise one a talk on wisdom is pleasant. Bhikkhus, these five kinds of talks are pleasant varying from person to person.


I guess it answers a lot of your questions in the origin post. *smile*

Yeshe

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 10:40:55 am »
...denial of post-mortem rebirth...

in reference to the Samma Ditthi sutta raised in this thread, it states about the taints (fermentations: effluents: asava):

Quote
There are these three fermentations: the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of fermentation is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html


about the taints (effluents), the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta states:

Quote
And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions [of becoming]? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

Therefore, an "exacting" or literal interpretation of the suttas appears to lead to the conclusion that the view of post-mortem rebirth leads to the arising (not cessation) of the taint of becoming and is thus not the way of practice leading to the cessation of fermentation.

Metta  :dharma:


Off topic, out of context, false translation and interpretation etc.  See threads on rebirth where Optimus Prime has clearly proven the Buddha's teaching of post-mortem rebirth in Buddha's own very plain, unvarnished words to Ananda about specific rebirths of humans after death, after the breaking up of the body. You need to get over this need to tell everyone else how right you are, especially when derailing your own thread about Buddha doing so. 

Thanks for a brief break before my next session  - always a pleasure. :)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 10:52:00 am by Blue Garuda »

Offline ABC

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2012, 01:56:35 pm »
Off topic, out of context, false translation and interpretation etc. 

Definitely not. But our exchange of opinions demonstrates how individuals interpret the Buddha's reported words in different ways.

Thus, as I originally posted, the doctrine of the Retrofuturism religion in believing one is the upholder of the True Teachings is non-sequitur.

Buddha had his personal views on truth and, imo, predominantly in the suttas, Buddha corrected those who misreprestented him.

But to believe we, personally, speak for Buddha is non-sequitur, imo.

 :r4wheel:
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 02:00:50 pm by ABC »
Therefore, Ananda, engage with me friends and not as opponents. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness - MN 122

Offline ABC

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2012, 02:06:11 pm »
See threads on rebirth where Optimus Prime has clearly proven the Buddha's teaching of post-mortem rebirth in Buddha's own very plain, unvarnished words to Ananda about specific rebirths of humans after death, after the breaking up of the body.

Buddha always spoke the truth but his words are interpreted in two ways, which is an established Dhamma principle.

Each ignorant formation (avicca) gives rise to a new mind-body (nama-rupa), which creates becoming and then leads to the death of that becoming & suffering.

Example, getting drunk results in an energised body. Then at the death of that [energised] body, one is born as a hungry ghost (addict) or in hell (hungover; in pain).

Nobody has proven anything. Buddhism offers the democratic right to interpret according to one's experience & disposition.

  :anjali:


Quote
duve saccāni akkhāsi
sambuddho vadataṃ varo
sammutiṃ paramatthañca
tatiyaṃ nupalabbhati

The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.

tattha:
saṅketavacanaṃ saccaṃ lokasammutikāraṇaṃ
paramatthavacanaṃ saccaṃ
dhammānaṃ tathalakkhaṇan ti

Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.
The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.

tasmā vohārakusalassa
lokanāthassa satthuno
sammutiṃ voharantassa
musāvādo na jāyatī ti

Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.
(Mn. i. 95)

« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 02:08:38 pm by ABC »
Therefore, Ananda, engage with me friends and not as opponents. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness - MN 122

Offline Hanzze

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2012, 05:50:20 pm »
Ohh this views *smile* they always bring things into existence with all its pain, as they will fade away.

Offline ABC

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2012, 08:34:40 pm »
bring things into existence with all its pain

what pain?

you post views on this forum all day. it may be painful for you and for those with liberated mind it is not painful

or are you simply trying to make others feel pain? are you trying to generate painful feelings in others by telling them that their posting on a forum creates pain?

Dhamma discussion is also a path to liberation. Dhamma discussion is joyful

But it seems your intention is to make others feel pain, which is unrelated to the Buddhist way of life

 :r4wheel:
Therefore, Ananda, engage with me friends and not as opponents. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness - MN 122

Offline Hanzze

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Re: The Buddha telling people their understanding is wrong
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2012, 09:54:47 pm »
Did you feel joy in the moment you had posted it? So maybe it was not really what is meant with Dhamma discussion because I don't think that the Buddha was wrong.

If I could make you feel unpleasant feeling, I also could make you feel unpleasant feeling. So let us look one more time on the chain of depending origin to understand how a feeling arises and how it leads to suffering.

Just observe it, is the practice. We can not understand it without observing how it really is.

Quote
"Don't think that the Dhamma lies far away from you. It lies right with you; it's about you. Take a look. One minute happy, the next minute sad, satisfied, then angry at this person, hating that person: It's all Dhamma..."

And one day we maybe gain right view and move the wheel of Dhamma for the first time. *smile*

 


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