Author Topic: Tranquillity AND insight?  (Read 1495 times)

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5227
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Tranquillity AND insight?
« on: July 17, 2013, 03:04:01 am »
There seem to be some major disagreements between the Theravada schools on the relative importance of tranquillity and insight. 
After a lot of thought and discussion I've come to the conclusion that both are important, based partly on this sutta which appears early in the Chapter of the Twos in the Anguttara Nikaya:

Tranquillity and Insight
Two things, O monks, partake of supreme knowledge.  What two? Tranquillity and insight.
If tranquillity is developed, what benefit does it bring? The mind becomes developed. And
what is the benefit of a developed mind? All lust is abandoned.
If insight is developed, what benefit does it bring? Wisdom becomes developed. And what is
the benefit of developed wisdom? All ignorance is abandoned.
A mind defiled by lust is not freed; and wisdom defiled by ignorance cannot develop. Thus,
monks, through the fading away of lust there is liberation of mind; and through the fading away
of ignorance there is liberation by wisdom.
(2:2.10)


Do you agree?
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2139
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 10:54:10 am »
Tranquility and abandonment. Just sit.  :fu:

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

  • Member
  • Posts: 769
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2013, 05:07:57 pm »
I agree with that.

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2139
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2013, 09:12:02 pm »
Fabrications of artifice arise in the sphere of ignorance fostered by ideas of achievements. But neither tranquility nor insight can be achieved anew.
From the outset there is nothing. So from the outset there is stillness which is natural tranquility.
From the outset there is nothing. So from the outset there is knowing which is natural insight.

 :fu:

Offline riju

  • Member
  • Posts: 310
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 11:07:49 pm »
None will disagree

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5227
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 01:23:42 am »
From the outset there is nothing. So from the outset there is stillness which is natural tranquility.
From the outset there is nothing. So from the outset there is knowing which is natural insight.

This sounds a bit Zen, and I'm not sure it relates to the OP question, bearing in mind we're in the Theravada sub-forum.  To put the question in another way, is tranquillity important in it's own right, or is it just a case of developing a minimal level of concentration as a basis for insight meditation?  For example when asked how much concentration is needed, Ajahn Chah reportedly said "Enough to read a book".  And yet other Theravada teachers stress the importance of developing the jhanas.

The logical conclusion of your statements above is that there is no need to develop either tranquillity or insight, no need to practice atall - is that actually what you're saying?  If you want to explore that idea, then could I suggest you start another thread so that this one can remain on topic?  Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 01:57:35 am by Spiny Norman »
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5227
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 01:24:25 am »
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Dharmakara

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4230
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2013, 02:54:25 am »
A mind defiled by lust is not freed; and wisdom defiled by ignorance cannot develop.


Sabba papassa akaranm,
Kusalassa upasampada
Sachitta pariyo dapanam
Etam Buddhanusasanam.

"To cease from all evil actions,
To generate all that is good,
To cleanse one’s mind:
This is the constant advice of the Buddhas."


Offline former monk john

  • Member
  • Posts: 977
  • My teacher and I in 1995
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2013, 04:53:57 am »
Good Incognito, I thought the Buddha only cared that we get rid of our self(joke)
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline Dharmakara

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4230
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2013, 07:25:40 am »
 :teehee:

Offline songhill

  • Member
  • Posts: 792
    • View Profile
    • The Zennist
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2013, 06:36:24 pm »
A mind defiled by lust is not freed; and wisdom defiled by ignorance cannot develop.


Sabba papassa akaranm,
Kusalassa upasampada
Sachitta pariyo dapanam
Etam Buddhanusasanam.

"To cease from all evil actions,
To generate all that is good,
To cleanse one’s mind:
This is the constant advice of the Buddhas."


The following passages respresent the Patimokkha (S., prâti-moksa), which can be found in the Dhammapada and the Mahapadana Sutta of the Digha-Niakaya.  Patimokkha, by the way, has to do with release from bondage. It's not about regula.

Quote
Forbearance and forgiveness is the highest kind of penance (tapas).
Nirvana is declared to be the highest (object) by the Buddhas.
A mendicant (samano) does not harm others.
One who harms others is not a mendicant.
Abstincence from all evils, accumulation of all that is good,
Purification of one's mind (sacitta),
That is the teaching (sasana) of the Buddhas.

Quote
It is the Patimokkha since it is the fallen that it frees (mokkheti) from the suffering of samsara.  For it is due to the release (vimokkhena) of the mind (cittassa) that a being is spoken of as ‘liberated’” (UdA 223—224).

Offline Dharmakara

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4230
    • View Profile
Re: Tranquillity AND insight?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2013, 09:43:09 pm »
All of them are excellent passages for daily reflection.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal