Yuttadhammo's critique of Brahmavamso's Jhanas

[Monkey Mind]

I saw this posted on the other forum, and I thought it was worth reposting here.

http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/posts/a-critique-of-brahmavamsos-the-jhanas/

I have Ajahn Brahmavamso's meditation instruction manual, but I have not given it much of a read yet. I made a personal commitment to stick with the Goenka/ U Ba Khin method for at least 2 years and 1 advance course.

[dhammaseeker51]

The "letting go" that Ajahn Brahm refers to is the letting go of control.
I can't understand how that can not be understood by someone who (has?) entered these states.
The beautiful breath is (in my own imited experience) the last stage at which you can control or direct anything. From there on in one is on "autopilot" - You just get taken.  That is why the "letting go" is often difficult, you know you're basically not in charge of events, and the thought of no control is frightening unless you are totally at ease and in a state of bliss.
Only on leaving Jhana can you apply any examination and critical thinking.

with Metta

[catmoon]

I'm pretty much on DS51's raft. The link seems to be just the sort of writing one gets from someone of great literary learning and little or no experience of deep meditation. I think he is theorizing about something he has never done.

[Caz]

Read the link is certainly an Interesting critique but I would like tohe Venerable in question to provide his own personal experience and apt language of progress  through the Jhanas. 

[Monkey Mind]

My interest in this article: I have read disagreements about how important jhanas are to the overall picture of meditation practice, but I don't think I've seen anyone dismiss jhanas outright. Thought it was a good opportunity to  

[catmoon]

I don't think I have ever heard Ajahn Brahm criticize anyone else, not even the leadership of the Wat Pah Pong when he was excommunicated. In his blogs, Venerable Yuttadhammo has a lot of criticism of others. As a lay consumer of this Buddhism "product", I notice this discrepancy, and I want to attribute some significance to this. However, I'm not sure if it really matters.

My interest in this article: I have read disagreements about how important jhanas are to the overall picture of meditation practice, but I don't think I've seen anyone dismiss jhanas outright. Thought it was a good opportunity to 

I've certainly seen a lot of people dismiss jhanas as a sort of meditational dead end, but my reading of the sutras says different. I've also seen a lot of confusion about the nature of jhana - or at least I think I have. It seems that everyone who has attained a state of calm and comfort mistakes it for jhana. But - jhana is something qualitatively different from normal consciousness, unless I am greatly mistaken.

At any rate the pot is certainly well stirred.

[cooran]

Hello all,

You may be interested in the thread elsewhere on this topic :
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360&view=unread#unread 

with metta
Chris

[dhammaseeker51]

I'm starting to believe that most people prefer drama to Jhana....

 

with Metta

[Monkey Mind]

Yes! Instead of dhammanupassana, dramanupassana!

[Spiny le Norman]

I've certainly seen a lot of people dismiss jhanas as a sort of meditational dead end, but my reading of the sutras says different.

I agree.  In the suttas the jhanas are frequently described as a precursor to insight.  IMO they are an important aspect of practice and a basis for insight to arise.

Spiny

[Monkey Mind]

Which suttas? How frequently?

[cooran]

Hello all,

Suttas and articles about Jhanas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#jhana

with metta
Chris

[ABC]

Only on leaving Jhana can you apply any examination and critical thinking.

Many meditators disagree with Ajahn Brahm on this point and Majjhima Nikaya 111 certainly offers no support for Ajahn Brahm's viewpoint here.

However, apart from this, I can only agree with the essense of what Ajahn Brahm is imparting, about how letting go not only forms the basis for jhana development but jhana itself is the fruition of letting go & a state of letting go.

As for Yuttadhammo, he seems stuck in attachment to his guru, notably Mahasi Sayadaw and his structured "techniques".

Let go, abandon everything, sit in the silence of mind & let the flow of dhamma do its work.

 

[lankaman]

Ajahn Brahm's "Mindfulness,Bliss and Beyond" contains a detailed discussion on his views about jhanas. While I do not agree with some of his interpretations he surely has some arguments to support them. Even if you let-go(!) the controversial stuff there is a good lot of instructions on the methods. I believe by the direct knowledge he writes these.

It is true that Burmese tradition is different from Brahm's method who has a Thai origin. But Buddhism is far more tolerable than any other religion. In general Brahm's description on jhana experiences are consistent with few Sri Lankan meditation teachers (pa-auk tradition) i have spoken with.

 

[francis]

Ajahn Brahm's "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond" is an excellent practical guide to meditation.  Highly recommended.

I think the Samadhi Sutta: Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) AN 4.94 sums up the different points of view pretty well.

"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four?

"There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. .. “


with metta