Author Topic: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha  (Read 715 times)

Offline ZenBoddhiChi

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Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« on: August 26, 2017, 08:55:20 am »
Dear friends in the sangha,

I just wanted to introduce to you this group called Dharma Voices for Animals which is focused on advocacy for a vegetarian/vegan diet among the Buddhist community. Please do visit, check it out, and please watch "Animals and the Buddha" available free on YouTube which was made by the same filmmakers of Cowspiracy and What the Health. It is my humble wish to have more people in the Buddhist community watch the film and check out the resources of this group.

To be clear, I'm not marketing anything, selling anything or asking for any money. Membership is free, and so are any and all of the resources. Please accept this information along with my sincere humility.

 :r4wheel:

http://dharmavoicesforanimals.org/

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 08:32:02 am »
ZenBoddhiChi,
It's interesting that your post has not attracted any comments. I guess it's because pure vegetarianism (or veganism), has potential nutritional deficiencies; and/or maybe it's because 'taste' is a first priority for food selection, for most people.

Nevertheless, cruelty to animals by Homo Sapiens is a problem in farming techniques, as well as cruelty to Homo Sapiens by other Homo Sapiens.

What's been happening in Syria and Iraq and Palestine during the past few decades seems far more cruel, in my opinion, than removing a young calf from its mother so that we can consume the milk that otherwise would have been consumed by the calf.

Slaughtering animals can be done humanely. The fact that it often isn't, is an issue that should be addressed.

Female chickens will produce eggs consistently, even if there's no rooster present. However, such eggs are infertile. I always buy free-range eggs. I'm not sure there is any evidence that a field of free-roaming female chooks will be particularly distressed if there are no cocks present.  :wink1:

The following scientific study addresses the potential nutritional problems of a vegan diet.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full.pdf+html

"However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n–3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals."

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 09:27:54 am »
Why calling for voice for animals? The industry and marked is smarter (see to normal pattern in above post)

Quote
Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
   than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
   if you love yourself.
-Ud 5.1


1. People do not have short life or are sick because of omega-3 fatty acids, at least.
2. No need to take side and even force a Devadatta-Dhamma
3. No requirement to organice a group or organisation as sub or alternative to the Buddha's "organisation". At least such alternatives are always given in for the sake of a livelihood.

To less confidence to teach simply Dhamma and step instead into daily opinions? The bowl has it's good reason.
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Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 10:10:43 am »
Why calling for voice for animals? The industry and marked is smarter (see to normal pattern in above post)

Quote
Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
   than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
   if you love yourself.
-Ud 5.1


1. People do not have short life or are sick because of omega-3 fatty acids, at least.


True! They have short life or are sick because of lack of omega-3 fatty acids (in part).

Quote
2. No need to take side and even force a Devadatta-Dhamma.


True! Take the Buddhist 'Middle Way', or 'everything in moderation'. Eat a moderate amount of grass-fed beef, and a bit of fish and a couple of eggs now and again.

Quote
3. No requirement to organice a group or organisation as sub or alternative to the Buddha's "organisation". At least such alternatives are always given in for the sake of a livelihood.


Not true! During the times of the Buddha, people ate nutritious, 'organically' grown food, free of artificial fertilizers and artificial pesticides. The rice would have been wholegrain, brown rice, much more nutritious than the white rice which is the standard fare in all Asian countries today.

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 08:50:50 pm »
Of course, the problem with modern diets results from the attachment to the pleasure senses, such as appearance, taste and smell.

A huge industry has been created to cater to such pleasures. Food companies employ scientists to experiment with various added ingredients to make the processed food as irresistibly tasty as possible. The health benefits of such foods tend to be a last consideration.

As a serious Buddhist, one should not choose food based on its appearance and taste, except when the appearance or smell of the food is an indication that it's rotten or decaying.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 12:42:07 pm »
Hi, folks.  Did a vegan diet from 1998 till 2005 time frame.  Suffered no physiological ailments.  Basically rice, with legumes, supplemented with fish oil and a multivitamin seemed to do the trick.

When I met my current wife drifted back to occasional meats, once or twice per week, or just to taste what she was eating.

Still eat "egg beaters" rather than eggs and butter.  Not too good for the heart, but, I don't want to be in the hospital dying of nothing.   :-P

In my estimation there is nothing more healthy for us and for the environment than abandoning animal protein.  Buddha was not reported to be a vegan except by the Mahayana traditions, but he was pretty close to it except for what was offered during alms rounds.  He advised the same to his bhikkhus. :dharma:
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 12:44:16 pm by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 05:01:50 pm »
Hi Ron,
During the times of the Buddha people did not have fish oil supplements and multivitamin capsules.

I can accept that a pure vegan diet could be a lot healthier than the average modern diet of processed foods with lots of artificial ingredients, and fat, sugar and salt.

However, I suspect the pure vegan diet is not ideal, unless one investigates the issue and includes specific types of vegetarian foods which are unusually high in certain vitamins and nutrients which otherwise tend to be lacking in the usual vegetarian diet, and/or takes vitamins and other supplements.

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 05:27:48 pm »
Here's a list of 7 nutrients that people who are on a pure vegan diet might lack if they are not taking supplements.

1. Vitamin B12
2. Creatine
3. Carnosine
4. Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3)
5. Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)
6. Heme-iron
7. Taurine

More details can be found at the following website.
http://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section7

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 02:53:22 am »
Aside of the useless discussion of what's better to eat rather than of what's better not to desire and wish for to eat:

It's better to lack one this and that, it's better to have hardships and even pain, as to lack of merits and die "healthy" with a lot of demerits.

What ever desire for sensual pleasure kills, causes harm for one self and others, is the reason for wars and crimes in the world.

Better to take a given steak as a freaky Vegan with his/her "good without depts food ideas" then to desire for a tasty and nurishing bio carrot. Not to speak of someone just looking for his body and health, or one who defends meat-desiring with arguments to make the causes of his wishes and orders bareable.

Sensedesire and greed in and of itself are the working places, if one thinks on his and others benefit, not of what better pleasure to desire and how to argue around it.

Long live is the cause of not intending of harm and not intending of killing and such is just possible if having less wishes and takes when ever possible what is given and near.

(Just to correct Ta Ron's note, that the Buddha advices his Bhikkhus to be Vegan or eats like him Vegan. Not at all. All this ideas are rooted in Devadatta-Dhamma and other tries to be better as the Buddha and his disciples and make conterfying copies which lead people to hold views and astray from the importand things and working places. Very modern in secular copy undertakings and selfdeclareted lay people movements and domested other traditions. Intention! Also why to vote for this and that, honest.)
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Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 08:10:40 am »
It's interesting that, according to Buddhist scriptures, eating fish and meat is permitted for monks and nuns as long as they have no reason to believe that the fish or animal was deliberately killed in order to provide food specifically for them.

According to this rule, there's no reason for a Buddhist to be a vegan, because, when one buys meat at the market, there's no reason to suspect that the animal was slaughtered specifically for oneself, by name.

However, I can see some ethical dilemmas for the small-scale farmer and his family if they are devout Theravada Buddhists.

The following article goes into more detail.
https://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/meat.html

"However there are some meats which are specifically prohibited for monks to eat: human meat, for obvious reasons; meat from elephants and horses as these were then considered royal animals; dog meat - as this was considered by ordinary people to be disgusting; and meat from snakes, lions, tigers, panthers, bears and hyenas - because one who had just eaten the flesh of such dangerous jungle animals was thought to give forth such a smell as to draw forth revenge from the same species!

Towards the end of the Buddha's life, his cousin Devadatta attempted to usurp the leadership of the Order of monks. In order to win support from other monks, Devadatta tried to be more strict than the Buddha and show Him up as indulgent. Devadatta proposed to the Buddha that all the monks should henceforth be vegetarians. The Buddha refused and repeated once again the regulation that he had established years before, that monks and nuns may eat fish or meat as long as it is not from an animal whose meat is specifically forbidden, and as long as they had no reason to believe that the animal was slaughtered specifically for them."

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 04:32:35 pm »

However, I can see some ethical dilemmas for the small-scale farmer and his family if they are devout Theravada Buddhists.

No real dilema.  A small scale farmer who wanted to maintain an adherence to the 1st preept would simply not raise animals for slaughter.

They could become Mahayana, which isn't quite so strident in matters of diet.

Or they could the billions of people who identify by a particular religion and not go lock-step with it.

For example, I knew "devout" Roman Catholic women when I was growing up who used birth control in spite of the prohibitions against it.  Pass judgement all you like.  I chose not to.

The same applies to Buddhism.  There are nearly half a billion of us.  Seriously, how many of them can you say are vegetarians?

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2017, 07:23:40 pm »
However, I can see some ethical dilemmas for the small-scale farmer and his family if they are devout Theravada Buddhists.
No real dilema.  A small scale farmer who wanted to maintain an adherence to the 1st preept would simply not raise animals for slaughter.

They could become Mahayana, which isn't quite so strident in matters of diet.

It's not that simple. Small-scale farmers in countries like Thailand or Nepal or Sri Lanka or Myanmar tend to be very poor. They will at least feel the need to breed a few chooks to feed their family, rather than buy eggs and pre-slaughtered chickens in the local market.

You think that changing religious sect from Theravada to Mahayana is simple, for such people?

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2017, 12:44:31 am »
Quote from: Vincent
According to this rule, there's no reason for a Buddhist to be a vegan, because, when one buys meat at the market, there's no reason to suspect that the animal was slaughtered specifically for oneself, by name.


That's so not right in all circumstances (although it's even a usual justification even in knowledge able Theravada areas and makes monks and nuns accept meat prepeared for them daily in monasteries, where the seller approaches every day..., sadly). First Monks and Nuns do not get their food on trade (if not going after wrong livelihood and give Dhamma for food, for example). Householder do. And demand makes a marked and their are killed for you and brought in the store where you expect it to get. Every day. Of course that might be different when a trader might knock on your door, not knowing that you wait for it.

Spoked "Name", you are registered and your preferences are sellected buy the register cashier and google, so no way to think today that you don't get, cause what you want, even fine physical traceable.

Don't forget that kamma is threefold: and the source often forgott, the mind. Being happy, liking it, approving it, that others are killed, one kills, performs mental kamma.

But really nobody knows how much killing is approved not even discussed to get fruit and vegetables out of a forest. People have actually no idea how and where all foid comes from and the pain and sufferin involved.

It's of course easier to take side with rabbits, dear, cow and pig them bugs, rats, creaping things, snakes, worms, flies...

And the "Bodhisattas" like to stay as long as possible for being benefit...

A Son's Flesh

Liberation is for the benefit of all being and one self and till there the way of holly life is pointed out and open also for "Bodhisattas", who lived the most like this, btw.

The Buddha took side with all being and for those who see the benefit, he prepaired a way to make it likewise.

This is why the wise praise:

- Help and assistence for father and mother: all beings have been once them for you
- Generosity, so that no additional hurt is need, share what you got and have
- The walk from home into homelessness, to step out of the wheel, starting with your livelihood.

It seems that monks and nuns today prefere to be maintained for their taking side, make such their livelihood, instead of walking and suggesting the path. Maybe they are afraid that nobody will kill anymore for them and bring them vegiterian food in their domestic homes, to continue putting oil into the burning lands. Alliance of Devadattas, pulling people astray from Dhamma for honor and fame of their conterfy alliances?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 01:00:22 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2017, 01:16:24 am »
Quote from: send via email to contact adress of the alliance friends@dharmavoicesforanimals.org

Bhante Sathi, Terzin Palmo, and other monastics involved in "Dharmavoicefor animals"

My person raised heavy critic an you livelihood and ways to intoduce Dhamma here, and you are heartily invited to paticipate, rethink you ways and be of help and use for all being by pointing out the path while walking by yourself here:

http://www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=8164.msg89641#msg89641

Regards

Samana Johann
doing Forest monk in Cambodia
(You are welcome to visit sangham.net)


From experiance, there will be less reaction, not to think about showing respect in regard of rebukes regarding Dhamma and Vinaya, fiction even that ways are bed.
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Offline IdleChater

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2017, 03:17:45 am »
However, I can see some ethical dilemmas for the small-scale farmer and his family if they are devout Theravada Buddhists.
No real dilema.  A small scale farmer who wanted to maintain an adherence to the 1st preept would simply not raise animals for slaughter.

They could become Mahayana, which isn't quite so strident in matters of diet.

It's not that simple. Small-scale farmers in countries like Thailand or Nepal or Sri Lanka or Myanmar tend to be very poor. They will at least feel the need to breed a few chooks to feed their family, rather than buy eggs and pre-slaughtered chickens in the local market.

You think that changing religious sect from Theravada to Mahayana is simple, for such people?

The thing is, they're not that much different than us.  They still pull their pants on one leg at a time, as the day.

If there was a conflict between religion and feeding their family, the family would win.

You also assume they will approach Buddhism the same way you do, with the same values and beliefs.

 


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