Author Topic: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha  (Read 4999 times)

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2017, 03:58:31 am »
Quote from: Vincent
According to this rule, there's no reason for a Buddhist to be a vegan, because, when one buys meat at the market, there's no reason to suspect that the animal was slaughtered specifically for oneself, by name.

That's so not right in all circumstances (although it's even a usual justification even in knowledge able Theravada areas and makes monks and nuns accept meat prepeared for them daily in monasteries, where the seller approaches every day..., sadly). First Monks and Nuns do not get their food on trade (if not going after wrong livelihood and give Dhamma for food, for example). Householder do. And demand makes a marked and their are killed for you and brought in the store where you expect it to get. Every day. Of course that might be different when a trader might knock on your door, not knowing that you wait for it.

The entire issue seems a very convoluted problem. Perhaps Gautama intuitively understood that humans need to eat a moderate amount of meat, fish or eggs, to remain healthy and productive.

Perhaps he intuitively understood that hunting animals for food has been a practice that predates the earliest civilizations, and that creating a prohibition on eating  animals for food would not only be impractical but would be unwise because it is against the fundamental survival instincts of humanity.

Quote from Samana:
"Spoked "Name", you are registered and your preferences are sellected buy the register cashier and google, so no way to think today that you don't get, cause what you want, even fine physical traceable."
[/b]

I think you've missed the point here. The guys who shoot the cows as they enter the slaughter house or abattoir, do not have any knowledge of who, specifically, will eat the meat of each cow. They might have an awareness of the wholesalers who buy the meat from the abattoir, but the wholesalers are not the consumers of the meat.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 04:01:10 am by VincentRJ »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2017, 05:59:31 am »
Quote
Vincent: Perhaps Gautama intuitively understood that humans need to eat a moderate amount of meat, fish or eggs, to remain healthy and productive.


The Buddha saw and new that the four nutrition, desire after it, the grossest physical food, are the reasons of suffering, regardless of their "color" and pointed out a way to go beyound desire for nurishment, using nurishment in a way that is most harmless, and this is following the noble eightfold path and not to develope ideas of possible find or invent nurishment that does not harm.

Born to be at least nothing as nurishment to nurish on others is a matter of seeing the first noble truth and develop samvega and urgency to escape.

If one is more a child of a creator, having the believe it's no up to him to be part of that nonsens circle, might thing he has a right to feed on others and selects what is tasty and easy to take, minority to his group of eaters, till he gets eaten himself, in best case, by his creator.

Develope ideas what you like: Wish and want makes a marked and its way and one rejoicing and accepting that there is harm for just pleasure, will not find easy freedom from bad conscious and freedom from thinking how to argue may ways. So not even easy find certain concentration to see what the noble truth are about.

It's like a citizen voting for war or death penalty, later arguing that the soldier shot, beliving that his mental, even verbal (by sign) action was not kamma of killing... mind, speech, body.

Beware of your actions an discover the intent and reason behind. Enough harm through alliances, Vincent. There is no way to argue pleasure against harm reasonable. Your pleasure and peace is not of more value and importance, then others, even you find countless eat and share with you on the pain of others.

Nobody forced or made you to be bound on a body that needs physical food to function than you. Good to go beyound and good to get known the first and the other Noble truth.

Foolish to make no use of it and rest on decaying merits. It's good to obsere the animal realm.

Love food? Love meat? There will be planty on the path...

Liberation - Freedom of Sensepleasure











No involvement at all... enough "taurin, Vitamin C 12..."


(If not visible, log in, register)

For real engaged Buddist who are willing to act for the well-being also for animals and not seeking for counterfy alliances to the path for it:

Quote
Six things are conducive to the abandonment of sensual desire:

1. Learning how to meditate on impure objects;
2. Devoting oneself to the meditation on the impure;
3. Guarding the sense doors;
4. Moderation in eating;
5. Noble friendship;
6. Suitable conversation.

The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest u Sensedesire


Quote
The Four Nutriments of Life: An Anthology of Buddhist Texts

Among the Buddha's most profound teachings is his observation that, like our bodies, our minds demand food for survival. Like a starving person, the mind hungers for sense-impressions; it feeds on thoughts, memories, ideas, and dreams; it even yearns for consciousness itself. This book includes carefully chosen excerpts from the suttas and commentaries that, together with the introductory essay, provide an excellent introduction to this vital topic.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 06:40:02 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2017, 07:04:36 am »








That such pictures and impressions (while teaching their views of what better to eat, to gain supporters), ways of live of monks and Nuns, only force wrong impressions, for some to tend to make it like those monks and nuns, ordering/wishing just fine vegiterian food for one part, and "meat" if not killed be one self, to like to eat is ok, for the other part... both leading far astray, is clear...

(Just look on the list of supporting monks and nuns of the alliance and their livelihoods...)

But that is the teaching and message from "householder" to "householder". People who hunt, collect and eat together.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 07:17:01 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2017, 08:36:58 am »
Quote
Vincent: Perhaps Gautama intuitively understood that humans need to eat a moderate amount of meat, fish or eggs, to remain healthy and productive.

The Buddha saw and new that the four nutrition, desire after it, the grossest physical food, are the reasons of suffering, regardless of their "color" and pointed out a way to go beyound desire for nurishment, using nurishment in a way that is most harmless, and this is following the noble eightfold path and not to develope ideas of possible find or invent nurishment that does not harm.

I think you are confusing issues, Samama. There are three major aspects to the qualities of food; Appearance, Taste and Nutritional Value.

Appearance and taste are the two most important qualities for most people, and the multi-billion dollar food industries, and cooking industries, exploit these strong desires for good appearance and good taste to the full. It's why 2/3rds of the populations of developed countries are overweight or obese. Cooking and eating food that looks good and tastes good is a major pleasure and activity for most people.

Appearance and taste are based upon the physical senses, whereas nutritional value is based upon scientific knowledge, or at least an awareness of what is good for the health of the body, perhaps by applying the principles of the Kalama Sutta, and observing what types of food are most beneficial for good health.

I think it's reasonable to assume that during the times of the Buddha there would have been some broad understanding of the medicinal benefits of certain plants. Even animals tend to instinctively eat medicinal plants when they get sick.

"Growing scientific evidence indicates that animals do indeed have knowledge of natural medicines. In fact, they have access to the world's largest pharmacy: nature itself. Zoologists and botanists are only just beginning to understand how wild animals use plant medicines to prevent and cure illness."

"The emerging science of Zoopharmacognosy studies how animals use leaves, roots, seeds and minerals to treat a variety of ailments. Indigenous cultures have had knowledge of animal self-medication for centuries; many folk remedies have come from noticing which plants animals eat when they are sick. But it is only in the last 30 years that zoopharmacognosy has been scientifically studied. Biologists witnessing animals eating foods not part of their usual diet, realized the animals were self-medicating with natural remedies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoopharmacognosy

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2017, 09:34:47 am »
Quote
[Yo so svākkhāto] bhagavatā dhammo,
The Dhamma well-expounded by the Blessed One,

Sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko,
to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see,

Opanayiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi:
leading inward, to be seen by the wise for themselves:


Nutrition and instinct:







Meditation on asubha



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq9AcCIG0oA

just for health and nutrition
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 09:55:30 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2017, 07:44:06 pm »
Essay: "Do we Bhuddhist have the right to take away from animals? Buddhism and Nurishment." (in German)

A brief Explaining of food and the Noble Eightfold path.


Once again you are confusing issues, Samana. Do we have the right to take the milk that the cow produced instinctively for its calf, when the cow didn't have any choice in its production of the milk?

Do we have the right to destroy forests, in order to create farms, in order to feed the population (including monks), whilst at the same time depriving the natural inhabitants of the forests (the wildlife) of their livelihood, causing them to move elsewhere and diminish in number?  What's the alternative?

Taking your argument to extremes, do we even have the right to pluck berries from a tree, thus preventing the berry from falling naturally to the ground and sprouting a new plant?

The issue as I see it, from my very reasonable viewpoint, is how we treat the animals that we nurture for food. Do we take care of them and protect them whilst they are alive, and do we kill them in a manner which produces the least suffering?

Often we don't, and that's the issue which should be addressed. Cows are often fed unnatural food (grains) and injected with hormones so that they become obese. Their meat is probably high in cholesterol. Chickens are often bred in cages in overcrowded sheds.

Those who are concerned about such issues will eat only grass-fed beef and free-range eggs.

Imagine if one could talk to a cow as a human, and ask it which type of death it would prefer; to be chased by a tiger and be eventually torn to death rather slowly, or to be instantaneously shot with a bullet or stun-gun between the eyes? What do you think its answer would be?

The other issue which I see as rather problematic, is the role of Buddhist monks in society. Are they not supposed to teach the population the principles of good behaviour which will have good consequences for everyone? Does this teaching exclude the principles of a good diet? Apparently it does.

"Nearly half of all monks in Thailand are dangerously obese, according to country officials who are rolling out a nationwide program to help the holy men bust their Buddha-like guts.
Angkatavanich cited a study that revealed 48 percent of monks were obese, 42 percent had high cholesterol and 23 percent had high blood pressure. About 10.4 percent were diabetic.
The new food plan includes healthier, fiber-rich food, nutrition training and exercise.
But it’s not just Thailand’s monks who have been packing on the pounds.
In 2012, Sri Lanka’s Health Ministry, responding to the expanding waistlines and associated health problems of the country’s clergy, drew up special menus for Buddhist devotees wanting to donate food."

"Because of their great affinity towards religious observances, most devotees offer food with high cholesterol content and the Buddhist monks have no choice but to partake of these foods all year round," Sri Lanka's then health minister and now president, Maithripala Sirisena, said at the time.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/03/16/thailands-fat-monks-urged-shed-pounds/81851732/

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2017, 09:11:58 pm »
It's indeed a problem to live with news, reports, opinions... and don't let the timeless Dhamma lead one inside an see for one self... why? Because the Danger in the World, the pointlessness (anatta) and the chance of views (anicca, in short stress and suffering, is not seen...

Like a monkey grasping on branch (objectivity) after the other, thinking to be able to escape, in search for food, for either what he takes as his body, his feelings, his perception, his consciousness, his fabrications, his kind, me, mind, we

Quote
Rather than trying to solve the problem by looking for a larger puddle for himself or his fellow fish, he looked inside to see why people would want to be fish in the first place. What he found was an arrow embedded in his own heart.

And then I saw an arrow here,
so very hard to see,
embedded in the heart.
Overcome by this arrow
you run in all directions.
But simply
on pulling it out
   you don't run,
   you don't sink.

The Arrows of Thinking - Papañca & The Path to End Conflict


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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2017, 10:14:30 pm »
The reason of killing or beeing killed, eating or being eaten, is not the kind of nurishment, but the pleasure in it, whether in this food or that, or the will to gain it comfortable by car or out of the refrigorator in seeing food in three aspects: nice, tasty, benefical for gain...

Quote
Now what, Mahanama, is the allure of sensuality? These five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is the allure of sensuality.

"And what is the drawback of sensuality? There is the case where, on account of the occupation by which a clansman makes a living — whether checking or accounting or calculating or plowing or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man, or whatever the occupation may be — he faces cold, he faces heat, being harassed by mosquitoes & flies, wind & sun & creeping things, dying from hunger & thirst.

"Now this drawback in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains no wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'My work is in vain, my efforts are fruitless!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he experiences pain & distress in protecting it: 'How will neither kings nor thieves make off with my property, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' And as he thus guards and watches over his property, kings or thieves make off with it, or fire burns it, or water sweeps it away, or hateful heirs make off with it. And he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'What was mine is no more!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source, sensuality for the cause, the reason being simply sensuality, that kings quarrel with kings, nobles with nobles, brahmans with brahmans, householders with householders, mother with child, child with mother, father with child, child with father, brother with brother, sister with sister, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend. And then in their quarrels, brawls, & disputes, they attack one another with fists or with clods or with sticks or with knives, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men], taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge into battle massed in double array while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are wounded by arrows & spears, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men], taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge slippery bastions while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are splashed with boiling cow dung and crushed under heavy weights, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men] break into windows, seize plunder, commit burglary, ambush highways, commit adultery, and when they are captured, kings have them tortured in many ways. They flog them with whips, beat them with canes, beat them with clubs. They cut off their hands, cut off their feet, cut off their hands & feet. They cut off their ears, cut off their noses, cut off their ears & noses. They subject them to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rahu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty [ascetic],' the 'bark-dress [ascetic],' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed.' They have them splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on stakes. They have their heads cut off with swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [people] engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct, they — on the break-up of the body, after death — re-appear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress in the future life, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

Cula-dukkhakkhandha Sutta: The Lesser Mass of Stress


Quote
Now what, Mahanama, is the allure of sensuality? These five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is the allure of sensuality.

"And what is the drawback of sensuality? There is the case where, on account of the occupation by which a clansman makes a living — whether checking or accounting or calculating or plowing or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man, or whatever the occupation may be — he faces cold, he faces heat, being harassed by mosquitoes & flies, wind & sun & creeping things, dying from hunger & thirst.

"Now this drawback in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains no wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'My work is in vain, my efforts are fruitless!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he experiences pain & distress in protecting it: 'How will neither kings nor thieves make off with my property, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' And as he thus guards and watches over his property, kings or thieves make off with it, or fire burns it, or water sweeps it away, or hateful heirs make off with it. And he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'What was mine is no more!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source, sensuality for the cause, the reason being simply sensuality, that kings quarrel with kings, nobles with nobles, brahmans with brahmans, householders with householders, mother with child, child with mother, father with child, child with father, brother with brother, sister with sister, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend. And then in their quarrels, brawls, & disputes, they attack one another with fists or with clods or with sticks or with knives, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men], taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge into battle massed in double array while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are wounded by arrows & spears, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men], taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge slippery bastions while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are splashed with boiling cow dung and crushed under heavy weights, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men] break into windows, seize plunder, commit burglary, ambush highways, commit adultery, and when they are captured, kings have them tortured in many ways. They flog them with whips, beat them with canes, beat them with clubs. They cut off their hands, cut off their feet, cut off their hands & feet. They cut off their ears, cut off their noses, cut off their ears & noses. They subject them to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rahu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty [ascetic],' the 'bark-dress [ascetic],' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed.' They have them splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on stakes. They have their heads cut off with swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [people] engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct, they — on the break-up of the body, after death — re-appear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress in the future life, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.


Quote
"What do you think? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?"

...

"Excellent, Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.'

When you see someone who is happy & well-provided in life, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.'

Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this.

"Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

The unimaginable beginnings of samsara
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Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2017, 09:55:34 pm »
The reason of killing or beeing killed, eating or being eaten, is not the kind of nurishment, but the pleasure in it, whether in this food or that, or the will to gain it comfortable by car or out of the refrigorator in seeing food in three aspects: nice, tasty, benefical for gain...

Not for me. I eat in moderation, in accordance with Buddhist principles, but I also give priority to the nutritional aspect of the food, rather than taste and appearance, because I want to live as long as possible in a healthy state without dependence upon hospitals and artificial drugs.

You've no doubt read the story of Gautama's period of extreme fasting whilst he was on his quest for enlightenment. He eventually became so thin and weak, he realized he would die before attaining enlightenment if he didn't eat. So he began accepting food, and his companion yogis deserted him.

The message here is that one can't expect to achieve enlightenment through extreme measures which stress the body and mind.

If a person wants to give himself the best chance of attaining enlightenment, he should keep himself as healthy as possible by eating nutritious food, and in moderation.

In order to do this, one firsts needs to understand what constitutes nutritious food. One then needs the resolve or will power to chose the nutritious food in preference to more tasty food.

For example, processed white rice is a staple food in Asian countries. Why is that, when it's an established fact that whole-grain brown rice is more nutritious?

There are no doubt a number of reasons, including the perception that white appears clean whereas brown could be dirty. However, a major reason is 'taste'. White rice has a milder taste than brown rice, so it doesn't interfere with the taste of the other food in the bowl, such as chicken curry or whatever recipe the chef is proud of.

As a result of this sensual pleasure for food, people deprive themselves of the most nutritious food available, and as a consequence suffer health problems.

It seems to me that Buddhist monks are mindlessly eating the same 'junk' food as the general population that supports them, and are therefore suffering the same consequences of being overweight and reliant upon medication and hospital care. It's not very smart.


Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2017, 12:35:43 am »
Stories, assuming, reports... not knowing even what hunger and lacking really is. And yes, a monk usually eats what he get where he dwells.Some to less of this, to less of that, to much of this... to much, to less, nothing... not sure.

Stay mindfull, and focus on the frames. There will be nothing that is not of benefit for you, what ever comes along, Vincent.
If thinking that no suffering and not causing a lot, that is when mindfulness has either developed or collapsed total. Look for youself.
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Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2017, 01:25:18 am »
Stories, assuming, reports... not knowing even what hunger and lacking really is.

I know what hunger is because I've fasted for a few days several times. I don't assume all reports are accurate. I investigate the issues for myself, in accordance with the advice of the Kalama Sutta.

The Buddha was wise. However, 2,500 years later, there are details based on sound scientific knowledge, which the Buddha was not privy to. We should not ignore the findings of modern science simply because they are not included in the Buddhist scriptures.

In fact, the benefits of fasting (from recent scientific studies) suggest to me that Gautama's enlightenment during a night sitting under the Bodhi tree, might have become possible because of the effects of his  very extreme fasting previously, (apparently for a 6 year period, if one can believe the scriptures).

During periods of prolonged fasting, the brain generates additional neurons to help the organism (person) detect food and survive. It's a purely natural process.

The body also, in a state of desperate hunger, consumes all the defunct white blood cells (the cells of the immune system). There's an inbuilt, natural intelligence of the body, to consume the defunct white cells before the active white cells. The natural intelligence of our body is underrated. It's an organism programmed to survive.

After the Buddha stopped his extreme fasting, the consumed, 'defunct', white blood cells would have been replaced with new, fully functioning cells, thus strengthening his immune system, and the new brain cells that had been generated to help him search for food would have helped him to later achieve enlightenment under the Bodhi tree.

That's just my personal theory of course.  :wink1:
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 02:01:04 am by VincentRJ »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2017, 02:50:18 am »
May Nyom give the body (rupa) not to much intelligence as Vincent could ignore fundamental sources and areas of tanha and avija, and take care not to fight against windmills, since certain aversion and preoccupations are actually either directed to things one is not, happy about ones own ways or earlier views. There is still much to discover, once seen, at ease.

Neither body nor brain are parts of wisdom but of course are not only vehicles but can trouble a lot bound to them. Again, the point here is not what (eating), that's a side thibg, but how to gain, how to effort and how to reagard it.

Food is a matter of upanissayapaccayena , STRONG condition cause. The more attached (some might say need) to this and that (not talked about how to get, here), the lesser freedom and wisdom.

Quote
Upanissaya-Paccaya

Purimā purimā abyākatā dhammā, pacchimānaṃ pacchimānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ, upanissaya paccayena paccayo.

Preceding indeterminate states are related subsequent faulty states by strong-dependence condition.

Zuvor vorangehende unbestimmte Erscheinungen, verursachen ungeschickte Erscheinungen, durch starke Grundlageursache, nachfolgend.

Utu bhojanam'pi upanissaya paccayena paccayo.

Also, weather and food are related by strong-dependence condition.

Ebenfalls sind Wetter und Nahrung verursacht durch starke Grundlageursache.

Puggalokpi, upanissaya paccayena paccayo.

A person is related by strong-dependence condition.

Eine Person ist verursacht durch starke Grundlageursache.

Senāsanam'pi, upanissaya paccayena paccayo.

A lodging-place is relared by strong-dependence condition

Eine Platz des Verweilens ist verursacht durch starke Grundlageursache.


Associations - food - good/bad mindstates - dwelling - personallity... those things are strong related. That's why "equal" meet over and over again and again, if there is no strong condition cause (strong-dependence condition) => saddha (later insight)/sila .

(Just to give some impressions, as seen a little in the alms pictures below: my person dwells, walks most in very remote areas., along mountains, unpoppulated areas, far away from markets and such as restaurants, far away from wealth and easy gain-able sense-pleasure. Alms consist of sure most natural sources and most fresh. "Much" meat of any sort, less vegetables, since planting such is not so usual, very less fruits because people eat them on the way by picking, would not think that such required providing and if off of own sources "horrible" junk. Some areas one would get only rice for long time, some areas only cakes... when enter a village and an boiled egg would be accepted, "all" villagers would try to give "he eats eggs, he only takes eggs..." The "wiser" the population the more healthy, the more in seek after merits and corrupted, the more junk... it's all a matter of upanissaya and what one seeks, as long seeking is a matter, one get's or is bound. Therefore the Buddha placed such as food, medicine, cloth and dwelling behind the good conditions for concentration, if both good, great! Stay.
Western, modern people would/do fasten voluntary fast and desire for meat, when need to buy on normal markets grows fast very low, as usually not far or direct next kill, if not needing to buy alive.
Fish-seller for example, drive here about 8:30 through the village. To avoid ideas of buying to give as alm-food, they are sold of course alive, my person walks before. Of course earlier it's most have if, just rice to give and little,  "poor" sidefood. The more pleasure one seeks in food, the greater the danger to be fast involved, even if very slight its disturbing, not so disturbing like rotting teeth out of vitamin lack...
When knowing people are up to prepare food, to delight to possible meet the chance to make merits to a tudong monk, my person would walk other streets, since people are not taught or dont like to listen. Food at the dwelling place to be reject is another protection-precept, aside of walking daily. Only if invitations to receive food in he house are spontanious, such is accepted... not easy at first place, but much ease later. Its much more difficult to obtain and maintain such ease if living in an household or monastery, where dependency and corrupt ways naturally grow how ever good one tries.)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 03:54:12 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2017, 04:31:40 am »
The "wiser" the population the more healthy, the more in seek after merits and corrupted, the more junk... it's all a matter of upanissaya and what one seeks, as long seeking is a matter, one get's or is bound. Therefore the Buddha placed such as food, medicine, cloth and dwelling behind the good conditions for concentration, if both good, great! Stay.

No he didn't. He realized that food was a basic essential. Without it he would never have achieved enlightenment. That's why he stopped fasting.

However, one should understand that food in ancient India 2,500 years ago, was organically grown and more nutritious than most food grown today. Modern farming techniques result in less nutritious food, but very cosmetically appealing food because of the pesticides used.

For the Buddha, the nutritional value of the food was not an issue, except when he died as a result of eating the wrong type of mushroom.

In modern societies, nutrition is a huge problem. It's why vitamin supplements are considered necessary for good health. There is scientific evidence that an orange grown 100 years ago, during the times of our grandfathers, would have contained more vitamin C than an orange grown today.

One of the major problems of religions in general, is that they cannot include future changes to our knowledge and circumstances. Muslims and Jews refrain from eating pork because hundreds or thousands of years ago pigs often carried harmful diseases. Circumstances have changed and pigs in modern farms are disease-free, but the religions do not change.

A major principle of Buddhism that impresses me, is that everything is subject to change. However, some Buddhists like to make exceptions, like, everything is subject to change except the Dhamma.

However, the Buddha didn't think his Dhamma would last more than a thousand years, and only 500 years if women were allowed to ordain.  :wink1:

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2017, 04:34:16 am »
Hi Ron,
During the times of the Buddha people did not have fish oil supplements and multivitamin capsules.

I can accept that a pure vegan diet could be a lot healthier than the average modern diet of processed foods with lots of artificial ingredients, and fat, sugar and salt.

However, I suspect the pure vegan diet is not ideal, unless one investigates the issue and includes specific types of vegetarian foods which are unusually high in certain vitamins and nutrients which otherwise tend to be lacking in the usual vegetarian diet, and/or takes vitamins and other supplements.

Hi, Vincent.  While the ancients did not have fishoil, they did have fish.  Also, it is well established that legumes combined with rice pretty much provides all essential nucleic acids.  Also cooking oils, such as peanut oil, vegetable oil, corn oil, etc.  also provide more nutritents needed.

This is a great topic.  Keep it up!

By the way, the reason I was on a vegan diet was to reverse atherosclerosis under the direction of Dr. Dean Ornish, a cardiac-thoracic surgeon, who recommended the diet.  Has kept me alive for over thirty years now.  But, no one lives forever, not even The Buddha.

The biggest issue with the carnivore diet is animal cruelty, which is not only undeniable, but quite apparent if you bother to take a walk into any butcher shop.

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

 


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