FreeSangha - Buddhist Forum

Lifestyle - it takes a village... => Lifestyles => Vegetarianism => Topic started by: ZenBoddhiChi on August 26, 2017, 08:55:20 am

Title: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: ZenBoddhiChi on August 26, 2017, 08:55:20 am
Dear friends in the sangha,

I just wanted to introduce to you this group called Dharma Voices for Animals which is focused on advocacy for a vegetarian/vegan diet among the Buddhist community. Please do visit, check it out, and please watch "Animals and the Buddha" available free on YouTube which was made by the same filmmakers of Cowspiracy and What the Health. It is my humble wish to have more people in the Buddhist community watch the film and check out the resources of this group.

To be clear, I'm not marketing anything, selling anything or asking for any money. Membership is free, and so are any and all of the resources. Please accept this information along with my sincere humility.

 :r4wheel:

http://dharmavoicesforanimals.org/ (http://dharmavoicesforanimals.org/)
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 28, 2017, 08:32:02 am
ZenBoddhiChi,
It's interesting that your post has not attracted any comments. I guess it's because pure vegetarianism (or veganism), has potential nutritional deficiencies; and/or maybe it's because 'taste' is a first priority for food selection, for most people.

Nevertheless, cruelty to animals by Homo Sapiens is a problem in farming techniques, as well as cruelty to Homo Sapiens by other Homo Sapiens.

What's been happening in Syria and Iraq and Palestine during the past few decades seems far more cruel, in my opinion, than removing a young calf from its mother so that we can consume the milk that otherwise would have been consumed by the calf.

Slaughtering animals can be done humanely. The fact that it often isn't, is an issue that should be addressed.

Female chickens will produce eggs consistently, even if there's no rooster present. However, such eggs are infertile. I always buy free-range eggs. I'm not sure there is any evidence that a field of free-roaming female chooks will be particularly distressed if there are no cocks present.  :wink1:

The following scientific study addresses the potential nutritional problems of a vegan diet.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full.pdf+html (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full.pdf+html)

"However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n–3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals."
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 28, 2017, 09:27:54 am
Why calling for voice for animals? The industry and marked is smarter (see to normal pattern in above post)

Quote
Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
   than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
   if you love yourself.
-Ud 5.1 ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.01.than_en.html[/url])


1. People do not have short life (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than_en.html) or are sick because of omega-3 fatty acids, at least.
2. No need to take side and even force a Devadatta-Dhamma
3. No requirement to organice a group or organisation as sub or alternative to the Buddha's "organisation". At least such alternatives are always given in for the sake of a livelihood.

To less confidence to teach simply Dhamma and step instead into daily opinions? The bowl has it's good reason.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 28, 2017, 10:10:43 am
Why calling for voice for animals? The industry and marked is smarter (see to normal pattern in above post)

Quote
Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
   than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
   if you love yourself.
-Ud 5.1 ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.01.than_en.html[/url])


1. People do not have short life ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than_en.html[/url]) or are sick because of omega-3 fatty acids, at least.


True! They have short life or are sick because of lack of omega-3 fatty acids (in part).

Quote
2. No need to take side and even force a Devadatta-Dhamma.


True! Take the Buddhist 'Middle Way', or 'everything in moderation'. Eat a moderate amount of grass-fed beef, and a bit of fish and a couple of eggs now and again.

Quote
3. No requirement to organice a group or organisation as sub or alternative to the Buddha's "organisation". At least such alternatives are always given in for the sake of a livelihood.


Not true! During the times of the Buddha, people ate nutritious, 'organically' grown food, free of artificial fertilizers and artificial pesticides. The rice would have been wholegrain, brown rice, much more nutritious than the white rice which is the standard fare in all Asian countries today.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 28, 2017, 08:50:50 pm
Of course, the problem with modern diets results from the attachment to the pleasure senses, such as appearance, taste and smell.

A huge industry has been created to cater to such pleasures. Food companies employ scientists to experiment with various added ingredients to make the processed food as irresistibly tasty as possible. The health benefits of such foods tend to be a last consideration.

As a serious Buddhist, one should not choose food based on its appearance and taste, except when the appearance or smell of the food is an indication that it's rotten or decaying.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on August 29, 2017, 12:42:07 pm
Hi, folks.  Did a vegan diet from 1998 till 2005 time frame.  Suffered no physiological ailments.  Basically rice, with legumes, supplemented with fish oil and a multivitamin seemed to do the trick.

When I met my current wife drifted back to occasional meats, once or twice per week, or just to taste what she was eating.

Still eat "egg beaters" rather than eggs and butter.  Not too good for the heart, but, I don't want to be in the hospital dying of nothing.   :-P

In my estimation there is nothing more healthy for us and for the environment than abandoning animal protein.  Buddha was not reported to be a vegan except by the Mahayana traditions, but he was pretty close to it except for what was offered during alms rounds.  He advised the same to his bhikkhus. :dharma:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 29, 2017, 05:01:50 pm
Hi Ron,
During the times of the Buddha people did not have fish oil supplements and multivitamin capsules.

I can accept that a pure vegan diet could be a lot healthier than the average modern diet of processed foods with lots of artificial ingredients, and fat, sugar and salt.

However, I suspect the pure vegan diet is not ideal, unless one investigates the issue and includes specific types of vegetarian foods which are unusually high in certain vitamins and nutrients which otherwise tend to be lacking in the usual vegetarian diet, and/or takes vitamins and other supplements.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 29, 2017, 05:27:48 pm
Here's a list of 7 nutrients that people who are on a pure vegan diet might lack if they are not taking supplements.

1. Vitamin B12
2. Creatine
3. Carnosine
4. Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3)
5. Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)
6. Heme-iron
7. Taurine

More details can be found at the following website.
http://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section7 (http://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section7)
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 30, 2017, 02:53:22 am
Aside of the useless discussion of what's better to eat rather than of what's better not to desire and wish for to eat:

It's better to lack one this and that, it's better to have hardships and even pain, as to lack of merits and die "healthy" with a lot of demerits.

What ever desire for sensual pleasure kills, causes harm for one self and others, is the reason for wars and crimes in the world.

Better to take a given steak as a freaky Vegan with his/her "good without depts food ideas" then to desire for a tasty and nurishing bio carrot. Not to speak of someone just looking for his body and health, or one who defends meat-desiring with arguments to make the causes of his wishes and orders bareable.

Sensedesire and greed in and of itself are the working places, if one thinks on his and others benefit, not of what better pleasure to desire and how to argue around it.

Long live is the cause of not intending of harm and not intending of killing and such is just possible if having less wishes and takes when ever possible what is given and near.

(Just to correct Ta Ron's note, that the Buddha advices his Bhikkhus to be Vegan or eats like him Vegan. Not at all. All this ideas are rooted in Devadatta-Dhamma and other tries to be better as the Buddha and his disciples and make conterfying copies which lead people to hold views and astray from the importand things and working places. Very modern in secular copy undertakings and selfdeclareted lay people movements and domested other traditions. Intention! Also why to vote for this and that, honest.)
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 30, 2017, 08:10:40 am
It's interesting that, according to Buddhist scriptures, eating fish and meat is permitted for monks and nuns as long as they have no reason to believe that the fish or animal was deliberately killed in order to provide food specifically for them.

According to this rule, there's no reason for a Buddhist to be a vegan, because, when one buys meat at the market, there's no reason to suspect that the animal was slaughtered specifically for oneself, by name.

However, I can see some ethical dilemmas for the small-scale farmer and his family if they are devout Theravada Buddhists.

The following article goes into more detail.
https://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/meat.html (https://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/meat.html)

"However there are some meats which are specifically prohibited for monks to eat: human meat, for obvious reasons; meat from elephants and horses as these were then considered royal animals; dog meat - as this was considered by ordinary people to be disgusting; and meat from snakes, lions, tigers, panthers, bears and hyenas - because one who had just eaten the flesh of such dangerous jungle animals was thought to give forth such a smell as to draw forth revenge from the same species!

Towards the end of the Buddha's life, his cousin Devadatta attempted to usurp the leadership of the Order of monks. In order to win support from other monks, Devadatta tried to be more strict than the Buddha and show Him up as indulgent. Devadatta proposed to the Buddha that all the monks should henceforth be vegetarians. The Buddha refused and repeated once again the regulation that he had established years before, that monks and nuns may eat fish or meat as long as it is not from an animal whose meat is specifically forbidden, and as long as they had no reason to believe that the animal was slaughtered specifically for them."
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Chaz on August 30, 2017, 04:32:35 pm

However, I can see some ethical dilemmas for the small-scale farmer and his family if they are devout Theravada Buddhists.

No real dilema.  A small scale farmer who wanted to maintain an adherence to the 1st preept would simply not raise animals for slaughter.

They could become Mahayana, which isn't quite so strident in matters of diet.

Or they could the billions of people who identify by a particular religion and not go lock-step with it.

For example, I knew "devout" Roman Catholic women when I was growing up who used birth control in spite of the prohibitions against it.  Pass judgement all you like.  I chose not to.

The same applies to Buddhism.  There are nearly half a billion of us.  Seriously, how many of them can you say are vegetarians?
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 30, 2017, 07:23:40 pm
However, I can see some ethical dilemmas for the small-scale farmer and his family if they are devout Theravada Buddhists.
No real dilema.  A small scale farmer who wanted to maintain an adherence to the 1st preept would simply not raise animals for slaughter.

They could become Mahayana, which isn't quite so strident in matters of diet.

It's not that simple. Small-scale farmers in countries like Thailand or Nepal or Sri Lanka or Myanmar tend to be very poor. They will at least feel the need to breed a few chooks to feed their family, rather than buy eggs and pre-slaughtered chickens in the local market.

You think that changing religious sect from Theravada to Mahayana is simple, for such people?
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 12:44:31 am
Quote from: Vincent
According to this rule, there's no reason for a Buddhist to be a vegan, because, when one buys meat at the market, there's no reason to suspect that the animal was slaughtered specifically for oneself, by name.


That's so not right in all circumstances (although it's even a usual justification even in knowledge able Theravada areas and makes monks and nuns accept meat prepeared for them daily in monasteries, where the seller approaches every day..., sadly). First Monks and Nuns do not get their food on trade (if not going after wrong livelihood and give Dhamma for food, for example). Householder do. And demand makes a marked and their are killed for you and brought in the store where you expect it to get. Every day. Of course that might be different when a trader might knock on your door, not knowing that you wait for it.

Spoked "Name", you are registered and your preferences are sellected buy the register cashier and google, so no way to think today that you don't get, cause what you want, even fine physical traceable.

Don't forget that kamma is threefold: and the source often forgott, the mind. Being happy, liking it, approving it, that others are killed, one kills, performs mental kamma.

But really nobody knows how much killing is approved not even discussed to get fruit and vegetables out of a forest. People have actually no idea how and where all foid comes from and the pain and sufferin involved.

It's of course easier to take side with rabbits, dear, cow and pig them bugs, rats, creaping things, snakes, worms, flies...

And the "Bodhisattas" like to stay as long as possible for being benefit...

A Son's Flesh (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.063.than_en.html)

Liberation is for the benefit of all being and one self and till there the way of holly life is pointed out and open also for "Bodhisattas", who lived the most like this, btw.

The Buddha took side with all being and for those who see the benefit, he prepaired a way to make it likewise.

This is why the wise praise:

- Help and assistence for father and mother: all beings have been once them for you
- Generosity, so that no additional hurt is need, share what you got and have
- The walk from home into homelessness, to step out of the wheel, starting with your livelihood.

It seems that monks and nuns today prefere to be maintained for their taking side, make such their livelihood, instead of walking and suggesting the path. Maybe they are afraid that nobody will kill anymore for them and bring them vegiterian food in their domestic homes, to continue putting oil into the burning lands. Alliance of Devadattas, pulling people astray from Dhamma for honor and fame of their conterfy alliances?
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 01:16:24 am
Quote from: send via email to contact adress of the alliance friends@dharmavoicesforanimals.org

Bhante Sathi, Terzin Palmo, and other monastics involved in "Dharmavoicefor animals"

My person raised heavy critic an you livelihood and ways to intoduce Dhamma here, and you are heartily invited to paticipate, rethink you ways and be of help and use for all being by pointing out the path while walking by yourself here:

[url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=8164.msg89641#msg89641[/url] ([url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=8164.msg89641#msg89641[/url])

Regards

Samana Johann
doing Forest monk in Cambodia
(You are welcome to visit sangham.net)


From experiance, there will be less reaction, not to think about showing respect in regard of rebukes regarding Dhamma and Vinaya, fiction even that ways are bed.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Chaz on August 31, 2017, 03:17:45 am
However, I can see some ethical dilemmas for the small-scale farmer and his family if they are devout Theravada Buddhists.
No real dilema.  A small scale farmer who wanted to maintain an adherence to the 1st preept would simply not raise animals for slaughter.

They could become Mahayana, which isn't quite so strident in matters of diet.

It's not that simple. Small-scale farmers in countries like Thailand or Nepal or Sri Lanka or Myanmar tend to be very poor. They will at least feel the need to breed a few chooks to feed their family, rather than buy eggs and pre-slaughtered chickens in the local market.

You think that changing religious sect from Theravada to Mahayana is simple, for such people?

The thing is, they're not that much different than us.  They still pull their pants on one leg at a time, as the day.

If there was a conflict between religion and feeding their family, the family would win.

You also assume they will approach Buddhism the same way you do, with the same values and beliefs.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 31, 2017, 03:58:31 am
Quote from: Vincent
According to this rule, there's no reason for a Buddhist to be a vegan, because, when one buys meat at the market, there's no reason to suspect that the animal was slaughtered specifically for oneself, by name.

That's so not right in all circumstances (although it's even a usual justification even in knowledge able Theravada areas and makes monks and nuns accept meat prepeared for them daily in monasteries, where the seller approaches every day..., sadly). First Monks and Nuns do not get their food on trade (if not going after wrong livelihood and give Dhamma for food, for example). Householder do. And demand makes a marked and their are killed for you and brought in the store where you expect it to get. Every day. Of course that might be different when a trader might knock on your door, not knowing that you wait for it.

The entire issue seems a very convoluted problem. Perhaps Gautama intuitively understood that humans need to eat a moderate amount of meat, fish or eggs, to remain healthy and productive.

Perhaps he intuitively understood that hunting animals for food has been a practice that predates the earliest civilizations, and that creating a prohibition on eating  animals for food would not only be impractical but would be unwise because it is against the fundamental survival instincts of humanity.

Quote from Samana:
"Spoked "Name", you are registered and your preferences are sellected buy the register cashier and google, so no way to think today that you don't get, cause what you want, even fine physical traceable."
[/b]

I think you've missed the point here. The guys who shoot the cows as they enter the slaughter house or abattoir, do not have any knowledge of who, specifically, will eat the meat of each cow. They might have an awareness of the wholesalers who buy the meat from the abattoir, but the wholesalers are not the consumers of the meat.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 05:59:31 am
Quote
Vincent: Perhaps Gautama intuitively understood that humans need to eat a moderate amount of meat, fish or eggs, to remain healthy and productive.


The Buddha saw and new that the four nutrition, desire after it, the grossest physical food, are the reasons of suffering, regardless of their "color" and pointed out a way to go beyound desire for nurishment, using nurishment in a way that is most harmless, and this is following the noble eightfold path and not to develope ideas of possible find or invent nurishment that does not harm.

Born to be at least nothing as nurishment to nurish on others is a matter of seeing the first noble truth and develop samvega and urgency to escape.

If one is more a child of a creator, having the believe it's no up to him to be part of that nonsens circle, might thing he has a right to feed on others and selects what is tasty and easy to take, minority to his group of eaters, till he gets eaten himself, in best case, by his creator.

Develope ideas what you like: Wish and want makes a marked and its way and one rejoicing and accepting that there is harm for just pleasure, will not find easy freedom from bad conscious and freedom from thinking how to argue may ways. So not even easy find certain concentration to see what the noble truth are about.

It's like a citizen voting for war or death penalty, later arguing that the soldier shot, beliving that his mental, even verbal (by sign) action was not kamma of killing... mind, speech, body.

Beware of your actions an discover the intent and reason behind. Enough harm through alliances, Vincent. There is no way to argue pleasure against harm reasonable. Your pleasure and peace is not of more value and importance, then others, even you find countless eat and share with you on the pain of others.

Nobody forced or made you to be bound on a body that needs physical food to function than you. Good to go beyound and good to get known the first and the other Noble truth.

Foolish to make no use of it and rest on decaying merits. It's good to obsere the animal realm.

Love food? Love meat? There will be planty on the path...

Liberation - Freedom of Sensepleasure (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,7821.msg11131.html#msg11131)

(http://sangham.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7821.0;attach=3048;image)

(http://sangham.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7821.0;attach=2978;image)

(http://sangham.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7821.0;attach=3010;image)

(http://sangham.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7821.0;attach=3189;image)

(http://sangham.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7821.0;attach=3578;image)

No involvement at all... enough "taurin, Vitamin C 12..."

(http://sangham.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1968.0;attach=1649;image)
(If not visible, log in, register (http://sangham.net/index.php?action=register))

For real engaged Buddist who are willing to act for the well-being also for animals and not seeking for counterfy alliances to the path for it:

Quote
Six things are conducive to the abandonment of sensual desire:

1. Learning how to meditate on impure objects;
2. Devoting oneself to the meditation on the impure;
3. Guarding the sense doors;
4. Moderation in eating;
5. Noble friendship;
6. Suitable conversation.

The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest u Sensedesire ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel026_en.html#des[/url])


Quote
The Four Nutriments of Life: An Anthology of Buddhist Texts ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/nyanaponika/index_en.html[/url])

Among the Buddha's most profound teachings is his observation that, like our bodies, our minds demand food for survival. Like a starving person, the mind hungers for sense-impressions; it feeds on thoughts, memories, ideas, and dreams; it even yearns for consciousness itself. This book includes carefully chosen excerpts from the suttas and commentaries that, together with the introductory essay, provide an excellent introduction to this vital topic.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 07:04:36 am
(http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Monks-receiving-food-24-05-14-1024x638.jpg)

(https://bswa.org/bswp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Brahm_givingKindness-800px-768x403.png)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GsDgoM0JfWQ/VntHdTsLpnI/AAAAAAAAF7I/eoYOlYa2GkE/s400/DSCN2911.JPG)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2hVE3zw9wls/VntIGpJ6F6I/AAAAAAAAF8A/vd7Q9xSExSA/s400/DSCN3069.JPG)

That such pictures and impressions (while teaching their views of what better to eat, to gain supporters), ways of live of monks and Nuns, only force wrong impressions, for some to tend to make it like those monks and nuns, ordering/wishing just fine vegiterian food for one part, and "meat" if not killed be one self, to like to eat is ok, for the other part... both leading far astray, is clear...

(Just look on the list of supporting monks and nuns of the alliance and their livelihoods...)

But that is the teaching and message from "householder" to "householder". People who hunt, collect and eat together.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 31, 2017, 08:36:58 am
Quote
Vincent: Perhaps Gautama intuitively understood that humans need to eat a moderate amount of meat, fish or eggs, to remain healthy and productive.

The Buddha saw and new that the four nutrition, desire after it, the grossest physical food, are the reasons of suffering, regardless of their "color" and pointed out a way to go beyound desire for nurishment, using nurishment in a way that is most harmless, and this is following the noble eightfold path and not to develope ideas of possible find or invent nurishment that does not harm.

I think you are confusing issues, Samama. There are three major aspects to the qualities of food; Appearance, Taste and Nutritional Value.

Appearance and taste are the two most important qualities for most people, and the multi-billion dollar food industries, and cooking industries, exploit these strong desires for good appearance and good taste to the full. It's why 2/3rds of the populations of developed countries are overweight or obese. Cooking and eating food that looks good and tastes good is a major pleasure and activity for most people.

Appearance and taste are based upon the physical senses, whereas nutritional value is based upon scientific knowledge, or at least an awareness of what is good for the health of the body, perhaps by applying the principles of the Kalama Sutta, and observing what types of food are most beneficial for good health.

I think it's reasonable to assume that during the times of the Buddha there would have been some broad understanding of the medicinal benefits of certain plants. Even animals tend to instinctively eat medicinal plants when they get sick.

"Growing scientific evidence indicates that animals do indeed have knowledge of natural medicines. In fact, they have access to the world's largest pharmacy: nature itself. Zoologists and botanists are only just beginning to understand how wild animals use plant medicines to prevent and cure illness."

"The emerging science of Zoopharmacognosy studies how animals use leaves, roots, seeds and minerals to treat a variety of ailments. Indigenous cultures have had knowledge of animal self-medication for centuries; many folk remedies have come from noticing which plants animals eat when they are sick. But it is only in the last 30 years that zoopharmacognosy has been scientifically studied. Biologists witnessing animals eating foods not part of their usual diet, realized the animals were self-medicating with natural remedies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoopharmacognosy
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 09:34:47 am
Quote
[Yo so svākkhāto] bhagavatā dhammo,
The Dhamma well-expounded by the Blessed One,

Sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko,
to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see,

Opanayiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi:
leading inward, to be seen by the wise for themselves:


Nutrition and instinct:

(https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.jQI3qANO_Q7atC4paB31lAEIDr&pid=15.1&H=142&W=160&P=0)

(https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.ZKh35suCEKLTzyeMbKAbyQEsDV&pid=15.1&H=113&W=160&P=0)

(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1616/515/320/asupa90.jpg)

Meditation on asubha (http://karaniya.blogspot.com/1999/12/asubha-meditation-corpse-images.html)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcScW49qhDaq-8pWXEnd6XAQoORo9YsS0syXnYwSd2mD54JfKOAMIA)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq9AcCIG0oA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq9AcCIG0oA)

just for health and nutrition
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 10:07:01 am
Essay: "Do we Bhuddhist have the right to take away from animals? Buddhism and Nurishment." (in German)

A brief Explaining of food and the Noble Eightfold path. (http://sangham.net/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item239)
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on August 31, 2017, 07:44:06 pm
Essay: "Do we Bhuddhist have the right to take away from animals? Buddhism and Nurishment." (in German)

A brief Explaining of food and the Noble Eightfold path.
 ([url]http://sangham.net/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item239[/url])


Once again you are confusing issues, Samana. Do we have the right to take the milk that the cow produced instinctively for its calf, when the cow didn't have any choice in its production of the milk?

Do we have the right to destroy forests, in order to create farms, in order to feed the population (including monks), whilst at the same time depriving the natural inhabitants of the forests (the wildlife) of their livelihood, causing them to move elsewhere and diminish in number?  What's the alternative?

Taking your argument to extremes, do we even have the right to pluck berries from a tree, thus preventing the berry from falling naturally to the ground and sprouting a new plant?

The issue as I see it, from my very reasonable viewpoint, is how we treat the animals that we nurture for food. Do we take care of them and protect them whilst they are alive, and do we kill them in a manner which produces the least suffering?

Often we don't, and that's the issue which should be addressed. Cows are often fed unnatural food (grains) and injected with hormones so that they become obese. Their meat is probably high in cholesterol. Chickens are often bred in cages in overcrowded sheds.

Those who are concerned about such issues will eat only grass-fed beef and free-range eggs.

Imagine if one could talk to a cow as a human, and ask it which type of death it would prefer; to be chased by a tiger and be eventually torn to death rather slowly, or to be instantaneously shot with a bullet or stun-gun between the eyes? What do you think its answer would be?

The other issue which I see as rather problematic, is the role of Buddhist monks in society. Are they not supposed to teach the population the principles of good behaviour which will have good consequences for everyone? Does this teaching exclude the principles of a good diet? Apparently it does.

"Nearly half of all monks in Thailand are dangerously obese, according to country officials who are rolling out a nationwide program to help the holy men bust their Buddha-like guts.
Angkatavanich cited a study that revealed 48 percent of monks were obese, 42 percent had high cholesterol and 23 percent had high blood pressure. About 10.4 percent were diabetic.
The new food plan includes healthier, fiber-rich food, nutrition training and exercise.
But it’s not just Thailand’s monks who have been packing on the pounds.
In 2012, Sri Lanka’s Health Ministry, responding to the expanding waistlines and associated health problems of the country’s clergy, drew up special menus for Buddhist devotees wanting to donate food."

"Because of their great affinity towards religious observances, most devotees offer food with high cholesterol content and the Buddhist monks have no choice but to partake of these foods all year round," Sri Lanka's then health minister and now president, Maithripala Sirisena, said at the time.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/03/16/thailands-fat-monks-urged-shed-pounds/81851732/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/03/16/thailands-fat-monks-urged-shed-pounds/81851732/)
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 09:11:58 pm
It's indeed a problem to live with news, reports, opinions... and don't let the timeless Dhamma lead one inside an see for one self... why? Because the Danger in the World, the pointlessness (anatta) and the chance of views (anicca, in short stress and suffering, is not seen...

Like a monkey grasping on branch (objectivity) after the other, thinking to be able to escape, in search for food, for either what he takes as his body, his feelings, his perception, his consciousness, his fabrications, his kind, me, mind, we

Quote
Rather than trying to solve the problem by looking for a larger puddle for himself or his fellow fish, he looked inside to see why people would want to be fish in the first place. What he found was an arrow embedded in his own heart.

And then I saw an arrow here,
so very hard to see,
embedded in the heart.
Overcome by this arrow
you run in all directions.
But simply
on pulling it out
   you don't run,
   you don't sink.

The Arrows of Thinking - Papañca & The Path to End Conflict  ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/beyond_en.html#ch10[/url])


Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 10:14:30 pm
The reason of killing or beeing killed, eating or being eaten, is not the kind of nurishment, but the pleasure in it, whether in this food or that, or the will to gain it comfortable by car or out of the refrigorator in seeing food in three aspects: nice, tasty, benefical for gain...

Quote
Now what, Mahanama, is the allure of sensuality? These five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is the allure of sensuality.

"And what is the drawback of sensuality? There is the case where, on account of the occupation by which a clansman makes a living — whether checking or accounting or calculating or plowing or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man, or whatever the occupation may be — he faces cold, he faces heat, being harassed by mosquitoes & flies, wind & sun & creeping things, dying from hunger & thirst.

"Now this drawback in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains no wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'My work is in vain, my efforts are fruitless!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he experiences pain & distress in protecting it: 'How will neither kings nor thieves make off with my property, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' And as he thus guards and watches over his property, kings or thieves make off with it, or fire burns it, or water sweeps it away, or hateful heirs make off with it. And he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'What was mine is no more!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source, sensuality for the cause, the reason being simply sensuality, that kings quarrel with kings, nobles with nobles, brahmans with brahmans, householders with householders, mother with child, child with mother, father with child, child with father, brother with brother, sister with sister, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend. And then in their quarrels, brawls, & disputes, they attack one another with fists or with clods or with sticks or with knives, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men], taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge into battle massed in double array while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are wounded by arrows & spears, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men], taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge slippery bastions while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are splashed with boiling cow dung and crushed under heavy weights, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men] break into windows, seize plunder, commit burglary, ambush highways, commit adultery, and when they are captured, kings have them tortured in many ways. They flog them with whips, beat them with canes, beat them with clubs. They cut off their hands, cut off their feet, cut off their hands & feet. They cut off their ears, cut off their noses, cut off their ears & noses. They subject them to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rahu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty [ascetic],' the 'bark-dress [ascetic],' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed.' They have them splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on stakes. They have their heads cut off with swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [people] engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct, they — on the break-up of the body, after death — re-appear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress in the future life, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

Cula-dukkhakkhandha Sutta: The Lesser Mass of Stress ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.014.than_en.html[/url])


Quote
Now what, Mahanama, is the allure of sensuality? These five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is the allure of sensuality.

"And what is the drawback of sensuality? There is the case where, on account of the occupation by which a clansman makes a living — whether checking or accounting or calculating or plowing or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man, or whatever the occupation may be — he faces cold, he faces heat, being harassed by mosquitoes & flies, wind & sun & creeping things, dying from hunger & thirst.

"Now this drawback in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains no wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'My work is in vain, my efforts are fruitless!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he experiences pain & distress in protecting it: 'How will neither kings nor thieves make off with my property, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' And as he thus guards and watches over his property, kings or thieves make off with it, or fire burns it, or water sweeps it away, or hateful heirs make off with it. And he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'What was mine is no more!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source, sensuality for the cause, the reason being simply sensuality, that kings quarrel with kings, nobles with nobles, brahmans with brahmans, householders with householders, mother with child, child with mother, father with child, child with father, brother with brother, sister with sister, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend. And then in their quarrels, brawls, & disputes, they attack one another with fists or with clods or with sticks or with knives, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men], taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge into battle massed in double array while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are wounded by arrows & spears, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men], taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge slippery bastions while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are splashed with boiling cow dung and crushed under heavy weights, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [men] break into windows, seize plunder, commit burglary, ambush highways, commit adultery, and when they are captured, kings have them tortured in many ways. They flog them with whips, beat them with canes, beat them with clubs. They cut off their hands, cut off their feet, cut off their hands & feet. They cut off their ears, cut off their noses, cut off their ears & noses. They subject them to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rahu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty [ascetic],' the 'bark-dress [ascetic],' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed.' They have them splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on stakes. They have their heads cut off with swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that [people] engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct, they — on the break-up of the body, after death — re-appear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress in the future life, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.


Quote
"What do you think? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?"

...

"Excellent, Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.'

When you see someone who is happy & well-provided in life, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.'

Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this.

"Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

The unimaginable beginnings of samsara ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/index_en.html#sn15[/url])
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 01, 2017, 09:55:34 pm
The reason of killing or beeing killed, eating or being eaten, is not the kind of nurishment, but the pleasure in it, whether in this food or that, or the will to gain it comfortable by car or out of the refrigorator in seeing food in three aspects: nice, tasty, benefical for gain...

Not for me. I eat in moderation, in accordance with Buddhist principles, but I also give priority to the nutritional aspect of the food, rather than taste and appearance, because I want to live as long as possible in a healthy state without dependence upon hospitals and artificial drugs.

You've no doubt read the story of Gautama's period of extreme fasting whilst he was on his quest for enlightenment. He eventually became so thin and weak, he realized he would die before attaining enlightenment if he didn't eat. So he began accepting food, and his companion yogis deserted him.

The message here is that one can't expect to achieve enlightenment through extreme measures which stress the body and mind.

If a person wants to give himself the best chance of attaining enlightenment, he should keep himself as healthy as possible by eating nutritious food, and in moderation.

In order to do this, one firsts needs to understand what constitutes nutritious food. One then needs the resolve or will power to chose the nutritious food in preference to more tasty food.

For example, processed white rice is a staple food in Asian countries. Why is that, when it's an established fact that whole-grain brown rice is more nutritious?

There are no doubt a number of reasons, including the perception that white appears clean whereas brown could be dirty. However, a major reason is 'taste'. White rice has a milder taste than brown rice, so it doesn't interfere with the taste of the other food in the bowl, such as chicken curry or whatever recipe the chef is proud of.

As a result of this sensual pleasure for food, people deprive themselves of the most nutritious food available, and as a consequence suffer health problems.

It seems to me that Buddhist monks are mindlessly eating the same 'junk' food as the general population that supports them, and are therefore suffering the same consequences of being overweight and reliant upon medication and hospital care. It's not very smart.

Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 02, 2017, 12:35:43 am
Stories, assuming, reports... not knowing even what hunger and lacking really is. And yes, a monk usually eats what he get where he dwells.Some to less of this, to less of that, to much of this... to much, to less, nothing... not sure.

Stay mindfull, and focus on the frames. There will be nothing that is not of benefit for you, what ever comes along, Vincent.
If thinking that no suffering and not causing a lot, that is when mindfulness has either developed or collapsed total. Look for youself.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 02, 2017, 01:25:18 am
Stories, assuming, reports... not knowing even what hunger and lacking really is.

I know what hunger is because I've fasted for a few days several times. I don't assume all reports are accurate. I investigate the issues for myself, in accordance with the advice of the Kalama Sutta.

The Buddha was wise. However, 2,500 years later, there are details based on sound scientific knowledge, which the Buddha was not privy to. We should not ignore the findings of modern science simply because they are not included in the Buddhist scriptures.

In fact, the benefits of fasting (from recent scientific studies) suggest to me that Gautama's enlightenment during a night sitting under the Bodhi tree, might have become possible because of the effects of his  very extreme fasting previously, (apparently for a 6 year period, if one can believe the scriptures).

During periods of prolonged fasting, the brain generates additional neurons to help the organism (person) detect food and survive. It's a purely natural process.

The body also, in a state of desperate hunger, consumes all the defunct white blood cells (the cells of the immune system). There's an inbuilt, natural intelligence of the body, to consume the defunct white cells before the active white cells. The natural intelligence of our body is underrated. It's an organism programmed to survive.

After the Buddha stopped his extreme fasting, the consumed, 'defunct', white blood cells would have been replaced with new, fully functioning cells, thus strengthening his immune system, and the new brain cells that had been generated to help him search for food would have helped him to later achieve enlightenment under the Bodhi tree.

That's just my personal theory of course.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 02, 2017, 02:50:18 am
May Nyom give the body (rupa) not to much intelligence as Vincent could ignore fundamental sources and areas of tanha and avija, and take care not to fight against windmills, since certain aversion and preoccupations are actually either directed to things one is not, happy about ones own ways or earlier views. There is still much to discover, once seen, at ease.

Neither body nor brain are parts of wisdom but of course are not only vehicles but can trouble a lot bound to them. Again, the point here is not what (eating), that's a side thibg, but how to gain, how to effort and how to reagard it.

Food is a matter of upanissayapaccayena , STRONG condition cause. The more attached (some might say need) to this and that (not talked about how to get, here), the lesser freedom and wisdom.

Quote
Upanissaya-Paccaya ([url]http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,7956.msg11912.html#msg11912[/url])

Purimā purimā abyākatā dhammā, pacchimānaṃ pacchimānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ, upanissaya paccayena paccayo.

Preceding indeterminate states are related subsequent faulty states by strong-dependence condition.

Zuvor vorangehende unbestimmte Erscheinungen, verursachen ungeschickte Erscheinungen, durch starke Grundlageursache, nachfolgend.

Utu bhojanam'pi upanissaya paccayena paccayo.

Also, weather and food are related by strong-dependence condition.

Ebenfalls sind Wetter und Nahrung verursacht durch starke Grundlageursache.

Puggalokpi, upanissaya paccayena paccayo.

A person is related by strong-dependence condition.

Eine Person ist verursacht durch starke Grundlageursache.

Senāsanam'pi, upanissaya paccayena paccayo.

A lodging-place is relared by strong-dependence condition

Eine Platz des Verweilens ist verursacht durch starke Grundlageursache.


Associations - food - good/bad mindstates - dwelling - personallity... those things are strong related. That's why "equal" meet over and over again and again, if there is no strong condition cause (strong-dependence condition) => saddha (later insight)/sila .

(Just to give some impressions, as seen a little in the alms pictures below: my person dwells, walks most in very remote areas., along mountains, unpoppulated areas, far away from markets and such as restaurants, far away from wealth and easy gain-able sense-pleasure. Alms consist of sure most natural sources and most fresh. "Much" meat of any sort, less vegetables, since planting such is not so usual, very less fruits because people eat them on the way by picking, would not think that such required providing and if off of own sources "horrible" junk. Some areas one would get only rice for long time, some areas only cakes... when enter a village and an boiled egg would be accepted, "all" villagers would try to give "he eats eggs, he only takes eggs..." The "wiser" the population the more healthy, the more in seek after merits and corrupted, the more junk... it's all a matter of upanissaya and what one seeks, as long seeking is a matter, one get's or is bound. Therefore the Buddha placed such as food, medicine, cloth and dwelling behind the good conditions for concentration, if both good, great! Stay.
Western, modern people would/do fasten voluntary fast and desire for meat, when need to buy on normal markets grows fast very low, as usually not far or direct next kill, if not needing to buy alive.
Fish-seller for example, drive here about 8:30 through the village. To avoid ideas of buying to give as alm-food, they are sold of course alive, my person walks before. Of course earlier it's most have if, just rice to give and little,  "poor" sidefood. The more pleasure one seeks in food, the greater the danger to be fast involved, even if very slight its disturbing, not so disturbing like rotting teeth out of vitamin lack...
When knowing people are up to prepare food, to delight to possible meet the chance to make merits to a tudong monk, my person would walk other streets, since people are not taught or dont like to listen. Food at the dwelling place to be reject is another protection-precept, aside of walking daily. Only if invitations to receive food in he house are spontanious, such is accepted... not easy at first place, but much ease later. Its much more difficult to obtain and maintain such ease if living in an household or monastery, where dependency and corrupt ways naturally grow how ever good one tries.)
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 02, 2017, 04:31:40 am
The "wiser" the population the more healthy, the more in seek after merits and corrupted, the more junk... it's all a matter of upanissaya and what one seeks, as long seeking is a matter, one get's or is bound. Therefore the Buddha placed such as food, medicine, cloth and dwelling behind the good conditions for concentration, if both good, great! Stay.

No he didn't. He realized that food was a basic essential. Without it he would never have achieved enlightenment. That's why he stopped fasting.

However, one should understand that food in ancient India 2,500 years ago, was organically grown and more nutritious than most food grown today. Modern farming techniques result in less nutritious food, but very cosmetically appealing food because of the pesticides used.

For the Buddha, the nutritional value of the food was not an issue, except when he died as a result of eating the wrong type of mushroom.

In modern societies, nutrition is a huge problem. It's why vitamin supplements are considered necessary for good health. There is scientific evidence that an orange grown 100 years ago, during the times of our grandfathers, would have contained more vitamin C than an orange grown today.

One of the major problems of religions in general, is that they cannot include future changes to our knowledge and circumstances. Muslims and Jews refrain from eating pork because hundreds or thousands of years ago pigs often carried harmful diseases. Circumstances have changed and pigs in modern farms are disease-free, but the religions do not change.

A major principle of Buddhism that impresses me, is that everything is subject to change. However, some Buddhists like to make exceptions, like, everything is subject to change except the Dhamma.

However, the Buddha didn't think his Dhamma would last more than a thousand years, and only 500 years if women were allowed to ordain.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 02, 2017, 04:34:16 am
Hi Ron,
During the times of the Buddha people did not have fish oil supplements and multivitamin capsules.

I can accept that a pure vegan diet could be a lot healthier than the average modern diet of processed foods with lots of artificial ingredients, and fat, sugar and salt.

However, I suspect the pure vegan diet is not ideal, unless one investigates the issue and includes specific types of vegetarian foods which are unusually high in certain vitamins and nutrients which otherwise tend to be lacking in the usual vegetarian diet, and/or takes vitamins and other supplements.

Hi, Vincent.  While the ancients did not have fishoil, they did have fish.  Also, it is well established that legumes combined with rice pretty much provides all essential nucleic acids.  Also cooking oils, such as peanut oil, vegetable oil, corn oil, etc.  also provide more nutritents needed.

This is a great topic.  Keep it up!

By the way, the reason I was on a vegan diet was to reverse atherosclerosis under the direction of Dr. Dean Ornish, a cardiac-thoracic surgeon, who recommended the diet.  Has kept me alive for over thirty years now.  But, no one lives forever, not even The Buddha.

The biggest issue with the carnivore diet is animal cruelty, which is not only undeniable, but quite apparent if you bother to take a walk into any butcher shop.

Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 02, 2017, 04:39:33 am
Quote
VincentRJ:  "For the Buddha, the nutritional value of the food was not an issue, except when he died as a result of eating the wrong type of mushroom."

This (fact) is disputed between traditions.  The Theravadin version is that he ate tainted pork.  The Mahayana version is that he ate mushrooms.  Their motivations for their differing stories are "suspected" to be related to their personal dietary preferences.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 02, 2017, 04:44:11 am
Quote
Maha-parinibbana Sutta ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji_en.html#fn-38[/url])

Sukara-maddava: a controversial term which has therefore been left untranslated. Sukara = pig; maddava = soft, tender, delicate. Hence two alternative renderings of the compound are possible: (1) the tender parts of a pig or boar; (2) what is enjoyed by pigs and boars. In the latter meaning, the term has been thought to refer to a mushroom or truffle, or a yam or tuber. K.E. Neumann, in the preface to his German translation of the Majjhima Nikaya, quotes from an Indian compendium of medicinal plants, the Rajanigantu, several plants beginning with sukara.


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Vincent: No he didn't.

It's "boring" and of no use if no trust, as if with your friends and kin. No Nissaya, and for arguing in darkness, food and energy, especially when given, has to much value, cost to much pain to be wast in such way. Go on as usual (http://google.com), in your sphere. Hungy for food for views (eg. after consciousness) there is less space when offered food for release.

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Vincent: However, the Buddha didn't think his Dhamma would last more than a thousand years, and only 500 years if women were allowed to ordain. ;-)
So much in regard of saddha and uninformed at the same time. Sadhamma, the good/true Dhamma loosed it's existence as 500 years after such as Abidhamma and certain sect Suttas appeared. But as said, of no value to participate in any Buddhism or 2.0 stuff, "If he did say, he must be wrong, since I know..."-attitude.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Chaz on September 02, 2017, 05:27:38 am
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VincentRJ:  "For the Buddha, the nutritional value of the food was not an issue, except when he died as a result of eating the wrong type of mushroom."

This (fact) is disputed between traditions.  The Theravadin version is that he ate tainted pork.  The Mahayana version is that he ate mushrooms.  Their motivations for their differing stories are "suspected" to be related to their personal dietary preferences.

No, Ron, I don't think so.

For one I was taught in my Mahayana snagha and others that the Buddha ate rotten meat and died.

As a reason choice for diet as a facet of the Path, nothing could be worse.  And besides, the Mahayana's lack of focus on meat probably has more to do with the fact that there are more important things.  It's kinda like, "Oh, you've chosen a vegetarian diet?  How nice.  Now, can we get back to the text?"

Online Buddhism seems obsessed by the subject of diet.  It's pobably due t the lack of espected authority figures to ell us when we're going in really stupid directions in our discussion.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 02, 2017, 07:08:15 am
The biggest issue with the carnivore diet is animal cruelty, which is not only undeniable, but quite apparent if you bother to take a walk into any butcher shop.

Absolutely, Ron. I don't dispute that. But cruelty (from the human perspective) is prevalent throughout the entire animal 'kingdom'. The greatest cruelty is perpetrated by humans onto other humans, as in wars, rape and pillage, terrible torture, slowly ripping limbs apart to gain information, and burning people at the stake because of their divergent views, a few hundred years ago.

When animals appear to be cruel, they are just doing what is necessary for basic survival, such as a snake slowly swallowing its prey, or a tiger chasing a deer and ripping it apart, or a female spider eating the male after sexual intercourse has taken place.

We have the capacity to be more 'humane' than the animals. That's what religions, or at least some religions such as Buddhism, attempt to teach us, but so many people fail because their animal heritage seems to dominate, which, in combination with an enhanced intellect compared with the animals, fortifies the cruelty.

I'm very much in favour of euthanasia when people are close to death, suffering pain, and have no hope of recovery, because I see that as humane and compassionate.

When we kill animals for food, we should do it compassionately. We have the capacity and the technology to do it compassionately. If we fail, then that's a problem that should be addressed.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 02, 2017, 07:24:16 am
It's perhaps also significant that, according to the story, when the Buddha realized he would die before he understood his mind, if he didn't eat, he was offered a bowl of milk porridge by a maid.

Some versions claim that Lady Sujata brought him a bowl-full of rice enriched with honey and thick milk.
That would have been brown rice and rich, full-cream milk. Perhaps we could surmise that a certain quantity of milk, which would otherwise have been given to the cow's calf, was instead given to the Buddha.

In other words, the Buddha's enlightenment is partially dependent upon cows' milk.

If this is true, it's difficult to create a convincing argument in favour of veganism.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 03, 2017, 01:25:41 am
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Although early Buddhism is widely believed to take a negative attitude toward the body, the texts of the Pali canon do not support this belief. They approach the body both in its positive role, as an object of meditation to develop mindfulness, concentration, and the mental powers based on concentration; and in its negative role as an object for unskillful states of mind. Even in its negative role, the body is not the culprit: the problem is the mind's attachment to the body. Once the body can be used in its positive role, to develop mindfulness and concentration, those mental qualities can be used to free the mind of its attachments to the body. Then, as many a modern meditation master has noted, the mind and body can live in peace...

Body Contemplation ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/study/bodymind_en.html[/url])
A Study Guide
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 03, 2017, 11:29:29 am
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VincentRJ:  ... "or a female spider eating the male after sexual intercourse has taken place." 

Yeah, I can relate.  I had a girlfriend like that before I found my first wife. :teehee:

Point is, as you pointed out, we have the capacity for compassion, and we also have been given the first precept:  Cause no harm....which we can choose to follow or not.  Eating other humans seems to be a taboo for most of us, and killing and eating other sentient creatures seems to be an allowed behavior only for animals lower than mankind in some cultures, who claim they are more spiritually elevated, because they only eat plant life.

The more I study plant biology, and neurobiology the more I realize that many specialized plants which evolved in low nutrient soil return the favor by eating animals, especially insects. Plant-life in the greater, more global context is much more sentient than we humans ever realized.  So, the precept "Cause no harm to sentient beings." ..does not necessarily exclude living plants, some of which have learned to react to animal predation upon them by rapaidly producing toxins to kill their predators.  The have even evolved to communicate this defensive need to others of their species not yet preyed upon.

Now, from a Buddhist perspective, eating dead sentient beings of all kinds seems to be OK.  Therefore, scavengers,(mortivores?... to coin a term) eating dead creatures seems to be the preferred dietary behavior for those wishing to live by the first precept.

I could also easily argue for "fruitivores" since plant strategy produces plant fruit containing seeds (nuts) for the spread of it's progeny in animal feces. :-P
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Chaz on September 03, 2017, 06:02:29 pm
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VincentRJ:  ... "or a female spider eating the male after sexual intercourse has taken place." 

Yeah, I can relate.  I had a girlfriend like that before I found my first wife. :teehee:

Point is, as you pointed out, we have the capacity for compassion, and we also have been given the first precept:  Cause no harm....which we can choose to follow or not.  Eating other humans seems to be a taboo for most of us, and killing and eating other sentient creatures seems to be an allowed behavior only for animals lower than mankind in some cultures, who claim they are more spiritually elevated, because they only eat plant life.

The more I study plant biology, and neurobiology the more I realize that many specialized plants which evolved in low nutrient soil return the favor by eating animals, especially insects. Plant-life in the greater, more global context is much more sentient than we humans ever realized.  So, the precept "Cause no harm to sentient beings." ..does not necessarily exclude living plants, some of which have learned to react to animal predation upon them by rapaidly producing toxins to kill their predators.  The have even evolved to communicate this defensive need to others of their species not yet preyed upon.

Now, from a Buddhist perspective, eating dead sentient beings of all kinds seems to be OK.  Therefore, scavengers,(mortivores?... to coin a term) eating dead creatures seems to be the preferred dietary behavior for those wishing to live by the first precept.


Not just food.

What is your belt made from?  Shoes?  Have a leather jacket or coat?  What's your protien supplemetn made from?  Use hide glue in your wood shop?  What are your gloves made from?

Use honey?  It's stolen bee food - they made to live on.  We take it and give them sugar water in payment.  Beeswax?  We may not kill for it but how about harm?

Have any brushes made with Boar bristle?

Fish oil dietary supplements?

Goose or duck down?

Use anything with feathers?

Got any fur?  Even "fake" fur drives a market for the real thing.

Silk?

Even wool.  Pretty hard to shear a sheep without having to wrestle it to the gound, and from the noise they make they're not laughing.

And that's a mere fraction of what we use from animals.

Milk  products - show milking aparatus to your wife and ask her how it would feel to have that cmamped on her girl parts.

The point is, with all thi talk about not eating meat, there is no mind paid to how use use and harm animals in a broader context. 

What we eat of their remains is a mere fraction of the other uses to which we put their bodies.  WE make a huge frikken deal about how bad steak is and then we hitch up our pants with a leather belt before we lace up wing our tips.

When someone totally eliminates animal products from their life ......totally ...... then they can talk to me about the chicken I'll eat for dinner.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 03, 2017, 06:08:34 pm
We can use plastic to satisfy our desire after sensual pleasure... is plastic better than lether? Or what is the point actually?
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Chaz on September 04, 2017, 04:18:18 am
We can use plastic to satisfy our desire after sensual pleasure... is plastic better than lether? Or what is the point actually?

A lot of times, animal products work better.

Plastic is not a solution as petroleum production is more devastating to the environment than animal husbandry.  That computer you're  using..... how many animals died in its production?
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 04, 2017, 05:18:49 am
That was the first time my person got banned, raising that issue, for discorage people to write and use forum...

That might make some "inpatient" understandable: Blood in your hand(y)/device (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/coffee-lounge/blood-in-your-hand(y)/msg45285/#msg45285)

So again: what's the real problem? And what's the way get possible not involved? We are "wasting" energy (even if some are given for reducing harm purpose)! It's of no use, when no interest in truth.

Think if even using all for idlechater...
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Chaz on September 04, 2017, 09:41:55 am
That was the first time my person got banned, raising that issue, for discorage people to write and use forum...

That might make some "inpatient" understandable: Blood in your hand(y)/device ([url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/coffee-lounge/blood-in-your-hand(y)/msg45285/#msg45285[/url])

So again: what's the real problem? And what's the way get possible not involved? We are "wasting" energy (even if some are given for reducing harm purpose)! It's of no use, when no interest in truth.

Think if even using all for idlechater...


How about you tray that in English this time.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 04, 2017, 01:48:23 pm
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IdleChater: 

What is your belt made from?
:  Don't wear a belt.  Use suspenders made of polymeric compounds.

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Shoes?  Have a leather jacket or coat?
:   Don't wear leather shoes, nor jacket, nor coat.  Same material as above:  Polymers.

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What's your protien supplemetn made from?
  Don't use protein supplements.  Rice and legumes provide all the essential nucleic acids needed.

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Use hide glue in your wood shop?
:  No.  Use Gorilla glue, cyanoacrylate esters, and epoxides for various projects.

Quote
What are your gloves made from?
  :  Polymers and elastamers.

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Use honey?  It's stolen bee food - they made to live on.  We take it and give them sugar water in payment.
:
 guilty as charged.  Will change over to maple syrup at next purchase.

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Beeswax?  We may not kill for it but how about harm?
:  Do use thread coated in beeswax.  It is over fifty years old.  My Aunt and Uncle were button-hole makers at Hickey-Freeman subsidiary in Baltimore, Lebo Brothers tailors.

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Have any brushes made with Boar bristle?
:  Nope!

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Fish oil dietary supplements?
:  Yes.  Will stop taking these when I die of a heart attack or a stroke.

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Goose or duck down?
:  Nope.  Wear ultra high molecular weight polypropylene long johns instead

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Use anything with feathers?
:  Just the ones my wife picks up for the cat to play with on the end of a string.

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Got any fur?  Even "fake" fur drives a market for the real thing.
:  No!

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Silk?
  Nope.  But I did buy some silk nightgowns for my deceased wife's parents for their anniversary.  Since this comes from the cacoons of certain larva, which they have abandoned, don't see a real issue with this product.

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Even wool.  Pretty hard to shear a sheep without having to wrestle it to the gound, and from the noise they make they're not laughing.
  How do you know they aren't laughing in sheep language?

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And that's a mere fraction of what we use from animals.

Milk  products - show milking aparatus to your wife and ask her how it would feel to have that cmamped on her girl parts.

She is going go be 67 this year, and can no longer get pregnant.  There would be little point in trying to milk her.   :-P

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The point is, with all thi talk about not eating meat, there is no mind paid to how use use and harm animals in a broader context.

What we eat of their remains is a mere fraction of the other uses to which we put their bodies.  WE make a huge frikken deal about how bad steak is and then we hitch up our pants with a leather belt before we lace up wing our tips

When someone totally eliminates animal products from their life ......totally ...... then they can talk to me about the chicken I'll eat for dinner.

Good points.  That is why the vegan life style advises avoiding the use of all animal products and byproducts.

I would also add to your points that plants are much more sentient than humans believed or understood in the past.

Therefore I recommend becoming a scavenger if you truly want to be free from causing any harm.  All the fur and leather can then be used without causing any harm, except that you would be competing with other scavengers, who may starve, because you robbed them of a road-kill meal.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 04, 2017, 04:49:04 pm

How about you tray that in English this time.

Rant? (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/general-buddhism-discussion/the-imperturable-or-discernment-and-liberation/msg89688/#msg89688). For sure much meritious if correcting when seeing failures and impression that there is actually no interest in Dhamma at all another time conformed.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Chaz on September 04, 2017, 06:02:27 pm

Therefore I recommend becoming a scavenger if you truly want to be free from causing any harm.  All the fur and leather can then be used without causing any harm, except that you would be competing with other scavengers, who may starve, because you robbed them of a road-kill meal.

We already are scavengers.  Few people hunt and kill their own food.  We go out and get food food that has already died.  If we don't eat it someone else will.  That or it will go in the garbage.  All figured into the price.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 04, 2017, 08:38:39 pm

We already are scavengers.  Few people hunt and kill their own food.  We go out and get food food that has already died.  If we don't eat it someone else will.  That or it will go in the garbage.  All figured into the price.

Another fatal western atittude, Atma thought to write about this morning, lokking around with certain awarness, and now it's reason accidently accurs.

This fatal greedy attitude is to think food that is not eaten by certan beings western find more worthy and christian cultur tended as been given to them for a higher purpose, made for them. So they would prefer to overeat then to give other beings a share. As well do they have to idea, that all needs to be taken, as others could use it and possible enjoy it and have a gain.

It's a terrible perception for them, that something is "wast" and not made ones own. So their, if not able to eat all themselves they would prever to feed their pigs with it rather to wish "may what ever being still its hunger with this cast away food rest" not to speak about giving a special beggar... *wuff, wuff* *mine, we, gain* "how the hell can we paint us to look like good-people, let's promote vegitarian, lets promot certain 'people must', 'thats their duty'"
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 05, 2017, 10:38:33 pm
This conversation seems to have gone to extremes. Didn't the Buddha promote the Middle Way, everything in moderation?

Veganism (ie. complete vegetarianism) is an extreme. In the short term is can be very beneficial for one's health, but after a number of years it is likely that one will begin to suffer the consequences of a lack of certain essential nutrients, which is why most vegetarians are not extreme vegans. They tend to include eggs, milk and butter in their diet, which provides those essential nutrients that are lacking in pure veganism.

The Santi Asoke Buddhist communities in Thailand claim to be strict vegans, but even they do not insist that young children and pregnant women exclude all animal products from their diet, because they accept that veganism can present health risks for such people.

As far as I know, there is no record of any society in the history of humanity that lived purely on a diet of only fruit and vegetables. Even Chimpanzees occasionally eat meat.

There's no doubt that the commercial slaughter of animals is not as humane as it could be, and should be. Some time ago, the media in Australia reported on some very cruel slaughtering techniques used in Indonesian abattoirs, where cattle imported from Australia were killed in a slow and cruel manner. As a consequence, the Australia government placed a temporary ban on all exports of cattle to Indonesia, which made the Australian farmers very angry.

It is possible to kill animals instantaneously without causing suffering. If this is done, what's the problem? Isn't Buddhism about the cessation of suffering?
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 06, 2017, 12:21:42 am
Wait till somebody is after you possession and likes to kill you instantaneously without causing suffering... Tigers and Demons might not have the higher purpose to harm you, but just after what you regard as your. Sadly that wouldtake you the possibility to live on... but not intent to kill you at all... holly molly What jungele of unskillful thinking. It's actually an extrem work to get them abound and find a middle, and the middle of your desires is not meant by middleway, or the tigers middle path.

Having the luck to come out of the animal realm, quick now when having power, missuses it to fall quick back to it. That normal in this world, think on all the pigs and cows... they also have history. And now a untained mind would switch to the idea that they even deserve it...

So the victims and pretators turn around and one has no chance to help them as they would not lend an ear just after sensuality.

The problem is not what to eat, but thats obiviously hard to understand.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 06, 2017, 06:17:19 am
The problem is not what to eat, but thats obiviously hard to understand.

The problem is definitely what to eat. Eat the wrong type of mushrooms, and you wil die. All animals, including Homo Sapiens, have to learn what to eat, in order to survive.

Those who are slow, or poor learners, or who are not even interested in the subject, and use only their taste buds to determine what they should eat, in a modern society, or who eat whatever food is freely given or placed in the monks' alms bowls, will  tend to end up being overweight, have many health problems, a shorter life span and huge medical bills that have to be paid by someone.

The Buddhist principle is that one eats to support life, not because of the pleasure of tasty food. However, our understanding of what constitutes a healthy diet, and why certain foods are healthier than other foods, has increased since the times of the Buddha.

I tend to eat wholesome foods that are considered to be healthy, such as brown rice, wholemeal bread, lots of vegetables and fruit, Manuka Honey, Ginger, Turmeric, Garlic, full cream milk, true butter, fish, eggs and the occasional piece of Scotch Fillet.

Every few weeks I fast for a few days. I've just finished a 4-day fast, eating nothing and drinking only water. I do this because I understand fasting has many health benefits, including detoxifying the body. If the evidence was clear that pure veganism is the healthiest diet, I would definitely cut out all animal products in my diet. But I'm not convinced.

My health, for clarity of mind, freedom from suffering, and a long life which increases my chances of attaining full enlightenment, is my priority.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 06, 2017, 08:39:05 am
Is the fear that Humans or beings will not survive and eventually stop wandering on serious? Maybe, not that it is not a matter to have sympatic joy, that so many beings are able in gaining a human existence, look a little on the population development since food industry. My person doubt that there is an immens falking from heaven and that fits well to the animal instincts as well, so to the round between eater and being just food relation. Animals are not able to take just what is given except some of them, living in near assissoation with their anchestors and beloved. Like children are used to just "eat" away their parents.

It would be really good to investigate the Dhamma first before taking on a certain voice that advocates such as rights to be solutions while the Dhamma has no notion of it. It asks you more of what are you willing to give and able to embody so to run a social all beings and longtime benefiting undertaking of change. The Buddhas way in such requires merits and not harm: generosity, virtue and universal metta, without favoring a certain group so that it will not lead to more violence at least.

The Buddhas contibution to that matter was to embody the possible best way, without telling "people should..." by maintaining his live with what is given, so he trained also his monks.

Its clear that if the Sangha lesser and lesser embodies such but rather walk the "justice" and right way, for what ever group they are in the mood, or exspect benefit, that people get hardly corrupted with advocating ways of rights and justice and have no possibility to trace the underlying reasons as well no sample of what generosity, virture and unlimited metta in this matter means.

So either for the missleading members of the Sangha nor for their assossiated lay people there seems to be much not much future to come ever on a good path back and therefore it's simply the best to view this degeneration with equanimity, a place where old kamma is so strong that there is no possibility to help. One "needs" to leave them in continuing their unskillful deeds by mind, speech and bodily action, even they will harm themselves much.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 06, 2017, 10:01:21 am
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VincentRJ:  "The Buddhist principle is that one eats to support life, not because of the pleasure of tasty food. However, our understanding of what constitutes a healthy diet, and why certain foods are healthier than other foods, has increased since the times of the Buddha."

Excellent principle.  "Eat to live, and not living to eat." :wink1:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 06, 2017, 10:18:47 am
Heedfullness!



Metta
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 06, 2017, 02:53:40 pm
Heedfullness!



Well, first of all, Samana, I don't believe in the mythological heaven and hell. Also, doing what is unrighteous is obviously not right. That's what unrighteous means.

In the 8-fold path there are many obvious statements, such as, right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood etc. One can't argue against that. Who in their right mind would want to promote wrong speech and wrong action, or wrong anything?

The issue is, what precisely is right or wrong in a particular set of circumstances? If someone were to kill another person for the sake of refreshing and nourishing his body, then that is clearly wrong. However, if someone were to eat a piece of chicken, or steak, or some eggs, because he had reason to believe he was lacking in certain nutrients that could result in some health problem, I think it's a bit absurd to suggest the hell-wardens might drag him off to hell.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 06, 2017, 04:56:26 pm
And once again, there is no problem in eating anything, but big in approving (mind), ordering or giving signs (speech) or doing by Body, harm on others, taking what is not given...

And whether one believes things or not, approves the teachings or not, has notions of right view or not, the "hellwards" (law of nature) does not much care about it. It not even has the compassion or better ability to warn you before. But some Brahmans are wiser, listen and try to pay proper attention, even it might be that their defilements give them not the certain freedom to stick to it, they have won an important feature, Saddha and good refuge in the Gems.

Quote
"What do you think, Dhanañjani: Which is the better: one who, for the sake of his wife & children ... his slaves & workers ... his friends & companions ... his kinsmen & relatives [humans] ... his guests ... his departed ancestors [aminals] ... the devatas ... the king ... refreshing & nourishing his body, would do what is unrighteous, what is discordant; or one who, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body, would do what is righteous, what is concordant?

"Master Sariputta, the one who, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body, would do what is unrighteous, what is discordant, is not the better one. The one who, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body, would do what is righteous, what is concordant would be the better one there. Righteous behavior, concordant behavior, is better than unrighteous behavior, discordant behavior.[3]

So what does he prefer to be?
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 06, 2017, 09:06:49 pm
And once again, there is no problem in eating anything......

Once again, there can be a big problem in eating anything. Eating the wrong type of mushrooms might kill one (although of course it's not certain that the Buddha died as a result of that, and if he did die as a result of eating poisonous mushrooms, he was very old and probably rather sick and weak at the time, and therefore more vulnerable.)

In addition to the problem of the nutritional value of the food eaten, there are many types of contamination that can affect food. From Wikipedia:

"Foodborne illness (also foodborne disease and colloquially referred to as food poisoning) is any illness resulting from the food spoilage of contaminated food, pathogenic bacteria, viruses, or parasites that contaminate food, as well as toxins such as poisonous mushrooms and various species of beans that have not been boiled for at least 10 minutes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foodborne_illness

So it's simply not true, Samana, to claim, 'There is no problem in eating anything'.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 07, 2017, 10:15:35 am
Yes, one do good to abstain from what is not given to eat (or proper traded, exchanged), and if its known that it is stolen, or even for one killed, to be food just to eat,... and good to eat no flesh from human, bears, horses, snakes, tigers... even if given unwished and undesired (in advanced)...

"I desire for meet and approve killing, I desire for vegetables and a prove the killing for it... this and that...because I fear to probably get poisioned food..." is not only a real argument that holds anywhere as reasonable in regard of best wellfair for all.

Aside has such fear, which can be very real for one... real reasons. Guess why, does one fear when depending on what is given... this fear is actually proper but to let one ride of it is not the way to make such personal fears disappear. Beings are used to seek for "paying back" and that one might be aware subtil or platant, unaware of it's appearence cause and how to get beyound such fear.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 07, 2017, 03:39:01 pm
Yes, one do good to abstain from what is not given to eat (or proper traded, exchanged), and if its known that it is stolen, or even for one killed, to be food just to eat,... and good to eat no flesh from human, bears, horses, snakes, tigers... even if given unwished and undesired (in advanced)...

"I desire for meet and approve killing, I desire for vegetables and a prove the killing for it... this and that...because I fear to probably get poisioned food..." is not only a real argument that holds anywhere as reasonable in regard of best wellfair for all.

Aside has such fear, which can be very real for one... real reasons. Guess why, does one fear when depending on what is given... this fear is actually proper but to let one ride of it is not the way to make such personal fears disappear. Beings are used to seek for "paying back" and that one might be aware subtil or platant, unaware of it's appearence cause and how to get beyound such fear.

I guess this is one reason why I do not want to become a Buddhist monk with so little control over what I eat.

The Buddhist sect that appeals to me most, is the Santi Asoke group in Thailand, because the Santi Asoke communities grow their own food organically. However, even that group is not ideal for me because they insist on being strict vegans. I feel I should at least be allowed to eat eggs from free-range chickens because no harm is done to any life during the production of such eggs.

The eggs are infertile when no rooster is present. This situation perfectly fits the Buddhist ideal. When no rooster is present, no sex can take place. The eggs are thus untainted with sexual desire or sexual misconduct.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 07, 2017, 10:48:40 pm
When my person sees such egg-industries he is aways reminded on the freedom and individualisum of modern sociaty...

It might be that for some the products and members of such a sociaty are ideas giver, where one might feel well to take part end rejoice in sensuality and becoming.

Its of course not of much benefit, it one does not like to escape from samsara, from suffering, to make use of the livelihood of the Noble ones and feed on the alms of the country for becoming and sensual satisfaction.

It is sad, that a monk do not follow his duty be working to abound sensuality, later kinds of becoming, is while enjoying the gifts and food for unwhole sake, is like a debtor. (Ajahn Fuangs message: will be the ox for the villigers in next existences and work on their fields) equal with joy in becoming.

While a monks even breaks precepts for this sake, is a acctually a thief with all it's effects.

One can draw the line to one self in there same pattern, since this is on the level of kamma, equal for all beings.

Hink for example on the fact, that woman generally live longer and are not so sick like male humans. That is because generally woman, even if not that different in regard of defilement, usually are more up to care about and share food and care care about sick and medicin.

Since the fist step to learn letting go is on the gross level of outwardly sacrifies, its a good choice to start excactly here: givingfood, medicine, cloth and shelter. If such is made not only to what one regards a own or selfsupporting on a wordily level at least but to give such to those worthy of gifts, those who are free from defilements or following the effort to become, there will never be a lack of anything and wealth can just increase.

Focus there if not able to let go on the level of precepts now. It comes then by its own with ease, Vincent.
That is why asians are used to eager make merits if still not able to keep precepts. Nevertheless, such makes no sense, is of no benefit, if precepts are additional broken for the sake of doing merits (a kind of doing unwholesome for the king so that he is in debt and will forgive fauls later, when judging is the matter).

Has Vincent read "Wisdom over justice" already to understand problem of pursuing certain social or global justice out of the frame of generosity, precepts and metta, like the Vegitarian aliance also does wrongly?
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 08, 2017, 03:42:05 am
I'm having difficulty understanding your English, Samana, so all I can address is your first sentence, 'When my person sees such egg-industries he is aways reminded on the freedom and individualisum of modern sociaty", which I translate as, 'When I see egg-industries, I'm always reminded of the freedom and individualism of modern society which the chickens are deprived of.'

If this is what you mean, then I think you are perhaps not aware of the free-range concept where the chickens are free to roam within the boundaries of the farm. They are encouraged to lay their eggs in a coop, by designing the coop, or nesting boxes, in such a way that it is considered attractive and safe by the chickens.

Ideally, the chickens are kept safe from natural predators, spend the night in a safe coop or nesting area, and during the day enjoy their natural activities pecking insects and worms, and socializing.

They probably lead a more pleasant life than they would if they were in a wild state. What is there for Buddhist monks to complain about?  :wink1:

Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 08, 2017, 04:50:50 am
Nothing aside that your free-range chicken concepts as well as others like "we do it vegan, vegitarian...", from which you life and yourself do chicken, and food, slave in it, has nothing to do with Buddhas path of liberation.

If you like it, there are plenty who like it too. The worlds amount of being will not decrease, for sure

Quote
The King of Death ([url]http://www.zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html[/url])

We live like a chicken who doesn't know what's going on. In the morning it takes its baby chicks out to scratch for food. In the evening, it goes back to sleep in the coop. The next morning it goes out to look for food again. Its owner scatters rice for it to eat every day, but it doesn't know why its owner is feeding it. The chicken and its owner are thinking in very different ways.

The owner is thinking, "How much does the chicken weigh?" The chicken, though, is engrossed in the food. When the owner picks it up to heft its weight, it thinks the owner is showing affection.

We too don't know what's going on: where we come from, how many more years we'll live, where we'll go, who will take us there. We don't know this at all.

The King of Death is like the owner of the chicken. We don't know when he'll catch up with us, for we're engrossed — engrossed in sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas. We have no sense that we're growing older. We have no sense of enough.
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 09, 2017, 05:39:14 am

Quote
The King of Death ([url]http://www.zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html[/url])

We live like a chicken who doesn't know what's going on. In the morning it takes its baby chicks out to scratch for food. In the evening, it goes back to sleep in the coop. The next morning it goes out to look for food again. Its owner scatters rice for it to eat every day, but it doesn't know why its owner is feeding it. The chicken and its owner are thinking in very different ways.

The owner is thinking, "How much does the chicken weigh?" The chicken, though, is engrossed in the food. When the owner picks it up to heft its weight, it thinks the owner is showing affection.

We too don't know what's going on: where we come from, how many more years we'll live, where we'll go, who will take us there. We don't know this at all.

The King of Death is like the owner of the chicken. We don't know when he'll catch up with us, for we're engrossed — engrossed in sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas. We have no sense that we're growing older. We have no sense of enough.



Good quote, Samana. It's a good analogy of the general human condition. However, some of us do have a sense that we are growing older. I certainly do, which is why I'm concerned about my diet. I want to live as long as possible in a healthy state.

I shall do my best to avoid eating poisonous mushrooms.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 09, 2017, 05:50:17 am
That's why the chicken does not run away, seeks not for the way to escape. Although death is feeding it till death. And why is it bound to die?

Because it desires for live, for food. And in it's way, poisoned mushrooms are for sure.
 
Quote
The Poisoned Banana ([url]http://www.zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html[/url])

I came to live in a monastery, ordained as a novice, when I was nine. I kept trying to practice, but I didn't understand much of anything in those days. I came to understand only when I was ordained as a monk. Oho! I saw the fear in everything. I looked at the sensuality with which people live, and instead of seeing it as fun as they did, I saw it more as suffering. It's like a custard banana. When we eat it, it's nice and sweet. We know the sweetness of its taste. But if we know that someone put poison in that banana, we don't care how sweet it is if we know that we'll die when we eat it, right? That's the way my views always were. As I was about to eat, I'd always see the poison placed inside it. That's how I kept pulling further and further away, to the point where I've stayed ordained for these many years. Once you see, that sort of thing doesn't tempt you to eat.

Wild Chickens

I'll give you a simple example. It's like wild chickens. We all know what wild chickens are like. There's no animal in the world more wary of human beings. When I first came to this forest, I taught the wild chickens. I observed them and learned many lessons from them.

At first only one of them would come past me while I was doing walking meditation. When it came close, I didn't look in its direction. Whatever it did, I didn't look in its direction. I didn't make any movement that would startle it. After a while I tried stopping still and looking at it. As soon as my eyes hit it, it ran right off. When I stopped looking at it, it would start scratching in the dirt, looking for food as before. But every time I looked at it, it would run right away.

After a little while it probably came to notice how quiet I was, so it let down its guard. But as soon as I tossed some rice in its direction, it ran right off. But I didn't care. I just kept tossing some rice out for it. After a while it would come back, but it didn't dare eat the rice. It didn't know what it was. It thought I was planning to kill it and curry it. But I didn't care whether it ate or not.

After a while it started scratching around in the dirt right there. It probably began to get a sense of what the rice was. The next day it came back to the same place and got to eat rice again. When the rice was gone, I tossed out some more for it. It ran off again. But when I kept doing this again and again, it got so that it would walk off only a little way and then come right back and eat the rice. That's when it understood.

At first the chicken saw the rice as an enemy because it wasn't acquainted with it. It didn't see it clearly. That's why it kept running off. But as it grew more tame, it came back to see what the rice actually was. That's when it knew, "This is rice. This isn't an enemy. It's not dangerous." That's how the wild chickens here came to eat rice from that day up to the present.

In this way I learned a lesson from the wild chickens. We're just like them. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas are means for giving us knowledge of the Dhamma. They give lessons to anyone who practices. If we see them clearly in line with the truth, we'll see that that's how they are. If we don't see them clearly, they'll always be our enemies, and we'll keep running away from them all the time.



Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: VincentRJ on September 09, 2017, 06:40:01 am

Wild Chickens

I'll give you a simple example. It's like wild chickens. We all know what wild chickens are like. There's no animal in the world more wary of human beings. When I first came to this forest, I taught the wild chickens. I observed them and learned many lessons from them.

At first only one of them would come past me while I was doing walking meditation. When it came close, I didn't look in its direction. Whatever it did, I didn't look in its direction. I didn't make any movement that would startle it. After a while I tried stopping still and looking at it. As soon as my eyes hit it, it ran right off. When I stopped looking at it, it would start scratching in the dirt, looking for food as before. But every time I looked at it, it would run right away.

After a little while it probably came to notice how quiet I was, so it let down its guard. But as soon as I tossed some rice in its direction, it ran right off. But I didn't care. I just kept tossing some rice out for it. After a while it would come back, but it didn't dare eat the rice. It didn't know what it was. It thought I was planning to kill it and curry it. But I didn't care whether it ate or not.

After a while it started scratching around in the dirt right there. It probably began to get a sense of what the rice was. The next day it came back to the same place and got to eat rice again. When the rice was gone, I tossed out some more for it. It ran off again. But when I kept doing this again and again, it got so that it would walk off only a little way and then come right back and eat the rice. That's when it understood.

At first the chicken saw the rice as an enemy because it wasn't acquainted with it. It didn't see it clearly. That's why it kept running off. But as it grew more tame, it came back to see what the rice actually was. That's when it knew, "This is rice. This isn't an enemy. It's not dangerous." That's how the wild chickens here came to eat rice from that day up to the present.

In this way I learned a lesson from the wild chickens. We're just like them. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas are means for giving us knowledge of the Dhamma. They give lessons to anyone who practices. If we see them clearly in line with the truth, we'll see that that's how they are. If we don't see them clearly, they'll always be our enemies, and we'll keep running away from them all the time.

You have such a good knowledge of chickens, Samana, I think you should take up 'free-range' chicken farming in order to provide nutritious eggs for your fellow monks.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Dharma Voices for Animals / Animals and the Buddha
Post by: Samana Johann on September 09, 2017, 08:58:41 am
Thats what my person does here, throwing rice into the forest of wild chickens and look possible that the rooster do not make others pregnant.

(http://www.sangham.at/Div_uploads/Pics/mirrored_gallery.JPG) (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/forum-games/humorously-dharma-refections/)

We can learn much from chicken and dhammavampiers...
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