Author Topic: Impermanence  (Read 2841 times)

Offline dharmacat_

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Impermanence
« on: April 17, 2013, 10:09:54 pm »
If things are empty of any true enduring substance and characteristics leaving there dependent arising without a beginning or a end, wouldn't it be correct to say that only relative, conventional things could be said to be impermanent? What is it that changes once you let go of all labels and concepts?

Offline ground

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2013, 10:23:41 pm »
If things are empty of any true enduring substance and characteristics leaving there dependent arising without a beginning or a end, wouldn't it be correct to say that only relative, conventional things could be said to be impermanent?
Only if there would be relative, conventional things that had a relative, conventional enduring substance. Are there such things?
What IS impermanent? Nothing. What IS permanent? Nothing. Both, impermanent and permanent are just fabrications of thought.

What is it that changes once you let go of all labels and concepts?
What IS it?  :fu:

Offline kanzen

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 06:39:24 pm »
Spring comes, grass grows by itself.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 06:56:11 pm »
Impermanence is just a conventional term.

Only for people who assert self, there is such thing called impermanence.

Reality doesn't have self. So, in reality actually there is no such thing called impermanence.

Some people may protest about this. But if they ask themselves, without self, how can you have impermanence?

Impermanent, permanent, self, no self, all of them are conventional term.

By the time you realize reality doesn't have all those labels, you will have the intuition that nothing actually change.

Like when you are dreaming. From 1 aspect, in your dream, it seems so many things are changing in your dream. Yau may dream becoming a king, have so many money, and so on. But in reality, nothing is changing.

Nothing is changing is also a conventional word actually.

Basically, once you do not have the assertion this is this, or this is not, you are absolutely clear and free without any assertion. It is free of any name.

You can only know this by experience. You cannot think about it like how it feels and so on.

It is purely experience issue.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline dharmacat_

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2013, 12:04:10 pm »
Thank you BlueSky and ground, as I understand it, impermanence only applies to relative conceptual "reality" of the two truths doctrine. Ultimate reality cannot be conceptualized and have the traits of permanence or impermanence to it since like you said bluesky, there is no self to attribute such things to. :)

Offline ground

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2013, 10:44:20 pm »
Thank you BlueSky and ground, as I understand it, impermanence only applies to relative conceptual "reality" of the two truths doctrine. Ultimate reality cannot be conceptualized and have the traits of permanence or impermanence to it since like you said bluesky, there is no self to attribute such things to. :)
And what are such thoughts useful for?

It is just self keeping itself busy.  :fu:

Offline dharmacat_

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2013, 12:41:38 pm »
I disagree, seems to me that there is only suffering if there is the delusional belief that things(dharmas) have Platonic existence and lack of awareness of interdependent existence, emptiness, if you will.

Just my humble opinion..

Offline Barah

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2013, 12:41:47 pm »
What is it that changes once you let go of all labels and concepts?
Let go, and you will know. How does one grasp labels and concepts? Through meaning. See everything as simply meaningless (ie. without consequences) and you will have your answer in a second. Just relabel everything to meaningless.


Offline ground

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2013, 08:58:36 pm »
I disagree, seems to me that there is only suffering if there is the delusional belief that things(dharmas) have Platonic existence and lack of awareness of interdependent existence, emptiness, if you will.

Just my humble opinion..
What I referred to is the view of the "two truths". Why is there clinging to the idea "truth" and why fabricate "two truths"?
Before there arises belief regarding things there arises the sense of self and if that is not known to be merely dependently arisen then there is the cause of all beliefs, amongst them is the  belief in ideas like "two truths".  :fu:

« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 09:01:17 pm by ground »

Offline Lobster

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 12:59:31 am »
 :grouphug:

I think BlueSky has stated it well.
Everything including thoughts and the risings of Samsara are impermanent.

. . . it does not bear 'thinking about' . . . but there it is
http://www.dharmafellowship.org/library/essays/path-of-mahamudra.htm

I am off for a stroll in (Buddha) Nature.  :om:

Offline songhill

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 01:20:59 pm »
If things are empty of any true enduring substance and characteristics leaving there dependent arising without a beginning or a end, wouldn't it be correct to say that only relative, conventional things could be said to be impermanent? What is it that changes once you let go of all labels and concepts?

Excellent question. But the answer lies somewhere in realizing the unconditioned. Mara the Evil One told the nun Alavika:

"There is no escape in the world,
So what will you do with seclusion?
Enjoy the delights of sensual pleasure:
Don't be remorseful later! (S. i. 128)

Offline dharmacat_

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2015, 12:50:33 pm »
Songhill: its like the very craving for a answer needs to be dropped...the seeking, the looking, the wanting, pursuit is obviously problematic.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2015, 04:17:23 pm »
Quote
dharmacat:  "What is it that changes once you let go of all labels and concepts?"


You are walking along in the dark, trip and fall over the edge of a precipice. To prevent yourself from falling over the edge you grab on to the edge.  You hang there for hours, not being able to lift yourself up over the edge.  You fear falling to your death, not knowing what is below.  Imagine how much energy it takes to hang on to the edge, clinging to it with every ounce of your strength and determination, energy sapping away. All the weight of your flesh and bone are compressed upon your fingertips, nails digging and bloody into the dirt and tangle of the brush.      Hanging over into free space not able to see what is below.  In your mind is the fear and expectation that should you let go you will be dashed upon jagged rocks, a pit of briars, sharp edged limbs and branches, broken glass, or  perhaps even a snake pit, you fear lying broken, bloodied, stricken, impaled, writhing in pain, then losing consciousness followed shortly by loss of limb or life, and all that that means to you.  Then the deep blackness of the "unknown" overcomes.  Death subdues you.  All that you believed yourself to be is lost.  No senses.  No memories.  No hopes.  No fears.  No accomplishments.  No responsibilities.  It is all gone in an instant.  Total loss of control.  All that you believed was you, is you, or will be you is gone.

Imagine now, after all that worrying, fear, and trepidation as you can hang on no longer, you find that you are in reality just above a small warm pond, within a sheltered, temperate cove... no rocks upon which to be dashed, no briers, no snakes, no tangles of sticks, broken limbs, or broken glass.  You fall gently into it, bathe in its warmth, rise to the surface and float calmly, quite at peace, relieved of all your unwarranted worry, fears, anxieties, and fretting.

Such (we are  promised) is unbinding and release once we attain right understanding, knowledge, and view having successfully penetrated The Noble Eight Fold Path:  Nibbana.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 04:50:27 pm by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Marcus Epicurus

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2015, 01:46:27 am »
Ron

That was a beautiful and meaningful story (and lesson)

Thank you
The non-doing of any evil,
the performance of what's skillful,
the cleansing of one's own mind:
this is the teaching of the Awakened.

Offline dharmacat_

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Re: Impermanence
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2015, 04:26:42 pm »
This was very accurate of that dark pit state...I'll keep this in mind as reinforcement I guess to keep letting go in silent illumination. Thank you.

 


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