Solo practice of Zen Buddhism !!

[thehappysnapper]

Having read in a number of places how the study of Zen Buddhism relies so very heavily on the relationship between teacher and student I was wondering, is it still possible to study Zen "seriously and fully" when one lives somewhere far removed from any form of Zen centre or teacher.
Is it in fact possible / plausible to find a teacher on line and study Zen with an internet relationship with a teacher or simply from books combined with contact with a different Buddhist tradition.   

[thehappysnapper]

A little explanation - https://thehappysnappershideout.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/zen-practice-on-your-own-is-it-possible-plausible/

[Lobster]

is it still possible to study Zen "seriously and fully" when one lives somewhere far removed from any form of Zen centre or teacher.

Short answer
No
Long answer
Yes

What do you think?

[ground]

Tripitaka Dharma Master says:

"When the worldy morons encounter a devilish, cock-and-bull fellow who babbles a demonic line, they come up with a demonic interpretation and use it as compass. This is beneath comment. How can they perform the function of a great thing?
Hearing that a certain person leads a group of millions, their mind is triggered into motion. Gaze well at the dharmas of your own mind to determine whether it harbors the spoken and written word or not."

"He who, without relying on the teaching of a master, sees Dharma from events is called one of sharp abilities. He who understands from spoken teachings of a master is called of dull abilities. In hearing the Dharma through the spoken teachings of a master there are also levels of sharpness and dullness in abilitiy."

"In the Dharma of cultivating the path, the vital energy of those who obtain their understanding through the medium of written word is weak. If one obtains his understanding from events, his vital energy will be robust. Those who see Dharma from the medium of events never lose mindfulness anywhere. "



excerpt from The Bodhidharma Anthology, J. L. Broughton

[Quiet Heart]

 
Yes it is possible.
But, please understand, I didn't say it was easy, just possible.
In fact for some of us, it is the only way...because of our nature.
We tend to rebel when we recieve "instructions".
We always keep asking the instructor..."but WHY is that".
That is my nature...I question things...so I have to learn and experience them myself.
I just "completed" a 3 year long series of monthly email "lessons"....and it deepened my understandimg greatly.
So you can find such matierial if you do the hard work of searching on-line.
The reason I won't suggest that matierial for you is because I know it was something that my particular nature I found intersting...but you might find it boring.
So to summarise:
Yes, a person can do it.
Yes, there is matierial you can find on the internet.
But you need to search for it, and find whatever seems right to you.
Then, when you've done those 3 first steps...question everything you read...and learn from your questioning.
(I would say...run that matierial through the clear vision of your Dharma Eye ...and judge it that way. But first you have to find that clear vision Dharma Eye).
Good luck.
 

[ground]

 

[Hanzze]

If you could trust your self, *smile* but I guess that's a just a self-confidence matter.

[Spiny le Norman]

Is it in fact possible / plausible to find a teacher on line and study Zen with an internet relationship with a teacher or simply from books combined with contact with a different Buddhist tradition.   

Would it be practical for you to go and do a retreat at a Zen centre?  Or maybe spend some time with a Zen teacher so you have a point of contact?
Alternatively if you have a local Theravada group you may well find that their approach to meditation isn't all that different from Zen.

Spiny

[ground]

If you could trust your self, *smile* but I guess that's a just a self-confidence matter.

Yes self-confidence is very important.

Bhikkhus, dwell with yourself as an island, with yourself as a refuge, with no other refuge; with the Dhamma as an island, with the Dhamma as a refuge, with no other refuge. When you dwell with yourself as an island, with yourself as a refuge, with no other refuge; with the Dhamma as an island, with the Dhamma as a refuge, with no other refuge, the basis itself should be investigated thus: 'From what are sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and dispair born? How are they produced?'
...
SN22.43 (B. Bodhi)

[Hanzze]

With Dhamma, with dhamma. That means, with less defilement. That means having understood the four noble truth already. That means, having entered stream already and gained firm faith (out of understanding) in the eightfold path. *smile*

As long as one has not joined the wheel of the eightfold path, one would maybe sit with self-confidence (or let me say, with one of the various wrong self believes)  a long long time.

Often we tend to cut of the right concentration and are attached to things which fits to our thought. In the same way our reciting of suttas might happen if we cut them off.

Here, monks, the not learned ordinary man who has not seen noble ones or heard their Teaching, not trained and not clever in their Teaching, has not seen Great Beings, or heard their Teaching, not trained and not clever in their Teaching, reflects, `Matter from self, or a material self, or in self matter, or in matter self.' That matter changes, and grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress arise to him.

7. He reflects, `Feelings from self, or a feeling self, or in self feelings, or in feelings self.' His feelings change, and grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress arise to him.

8. He reflects, `Perceptions from self, or a perceiving self, or in self perceptions, or in perceptions self. His perceptions change and grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress arise

9. He reflects, `Intentions from self, or an intending self, or in self intentions, or in intentions self.' His intentions change and grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress arise.

10. He reflects, `Consciousness from self, or a conscious self, or in self consciousness, or in consciousness self.' His consciousness changes, and grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress arise.

11. Monks, knowing the impermanence, change, loss of interest, and cessation of that matter, in the past and also at present as it really is, with right wisdom the grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress fade. He is not worried with that fading and abides pleasantly. The monk abiding pleasantly is said has become suitable by that means.

12. Monks, knowing the impermanence, change, loss of interest, and cessation of feelings in the past and also at present as it really is, with right wisdom, the grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress fade. He is not worried with that fading and abides pleasantly. The monk abiding pleasantly is said has become suitable by that means

13. Monks, knowing the impermanence, change, loss of interest, and cessation of perceptions in the past and also at present as it really is, with right wisdom, the grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress fade. He is not worried with that fading and abides pleasantly. The monk abiding pleasantly is said has become suitable by that means.

14, Monks, knowing the impermanence, change, loss of interest, and cessation of intentions in the past and also at present as it really is, with right wisdom, the grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress fade. He is not worried with that fading and abides pleasantly. The monk abiding pleasantly is said has become suitable by that means.

15. Monks, knowing the impermanence, change, loss of interest, and cessation of consciousness in the past and also at present as it really is, with right wisdom, the grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure, and distress fade. He is not worried with that fading and abides pleasantly. The monk abiding pleasantly is said has become suitable by that means.

Light for Yourself

Maybe you can post the hole translation of Bhikkhu Bodhi, as I only found this translation.

An additional thought might be that Zen (as an alternative to Buddha Dhamma) should be practiced exclusively alone. How could one gain Buddha hood if taught. Ohh I remember, Unconditioned! *smile* The untaught teachings, never heard by one self. *smile* Who could be taught?

 

[ground]

Maybe you can post the hole translation of Bhikkhu Bodhi, as I only found this translation.

After the excerpt quoted follows an explanation of the "uninstructed worldling who is not a seer of the nobles ones and is unskilled in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma."

So "without teacher" in the context of "island" of course implies having already been instructed by noble ones which however are not necessarily the "noble ones" a certain tradition want to regard as "noble" exclusively.

Then it reads:

But bhikkhus, when one has understood the impermanence of {aggregates}, its change, fading away, and cessation, and when one sees with correct wisdom thus: 'In the past and also now all {aggregates} is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change,' then sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair are abandoned. With their abandonment one does not become agitated. Being unagitated, one dwells happily. A bikkhu who dwells happily is said to be quenched in that respect.

So the sequence is:
Having been instructed by one or those who know and attained that knowing then one does not need a teacher.

Assuming that Zen teachers can also be "noble ones", "having been instructed"  may refer to personal teachings or to transmitted texts originating from a noble Zen teacher, depending on the capacity of the practitioner.

However thinking and asking "Do I need a teacher?" may indicate doubt and that the knowing has not been transmitted so far. In such a particular case the answer would have to be "Yes, you need a teacher".
All this has been clearly expressed by Quiet Heart saying:

But first you have to find that clear vision Dharma Eye

[Hanzze]

*smile*

hmm...

All this has been clearly expressed by Quiet Heart saying:

But first you have to find that clear vision Dharma Eye

And what is a vision of Dharma Eye, thinking on "with the Dhamma as an island"? With a (the...) vision of Dhamma?

We should keep in mind that the amount of people relaying on self-confidence and out of it the conviction thinking "I don't need a teacher", as well as those with traumatic achievement saying "I am healed to search for the support of a teacher" is from a far bigger dimension, as the amount of those who have right self-confidence, and seek for proper support.

...originating from a noble Zen teacher

I am not sure if the originating for any teacher beside Buddha is a good safety feature. As long as the Dharma - Eye (if you like to call it like that) is not open, we see many things as noble. What ever fits to our ideas. *smile*

But maybe you can add some indicators for a noble Zen teacher (if they are from different nobility) for seeking but still worldly beings.

[Hanzze]

Here is a nice documentation of practicing without teacher and with teacher and one would maybe also see significant differences among the shown impersonators. *smile* (I am not sure if that is really relevant in regard of "modern" understanding of practice and the common understood "Zen-way".)

Amongst White Clouds

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5902279151658995270

[thehappysnapper]

Thank you all very much for your comments and advice, all has been assimilated :-)   

[Spiny le Norman]

Thank you all very much for your comments and advice, all has been assimilated :-)   

Let us know how you get on.

Spiny