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Schools of Buddhism => Mahayana => Zen / Ch'an / Seon / Thien => Topic started by: funky_monk on March 22, 2016, 02:56:01 am

Title: the flower is ONLY made of non-flower elements
Post by: funky_monk on March 22, 2016, 02:56:01 am
Please, can somebody help me understand.

I can see that the flower is made of non-flower elements: sunshine, rain, earth, air, and so on
So without the non-flower elements no flower. The flower cannot exist when the non-flower elements are not present.

But is the flower ONLY (!) made of non-flower elements?

I cannot see the proof.
I understand the non-flower elements are necessary conditions for the existence of the flower.
But i don't see that the non-flower elements are sufficient conditions for the existence of the flower.

The flower differs from the grass. So there must be some self-element to the flower that makes it a flower?

Can somebody please guide me through this?

Thank you very much
Kindness
Title: Re: the flower is ONLY made of non-flower elements
Post by: loopix on March 22, 2016, 02:54:30 pm
does it matter?  just smell it and look at it. it's pretty.  :socool:
Title: Re: the flower is ONLY made of non-flower elements
Post by: moonbeam on March 24, 2016, 07:00:05 pm
All the non-flowers in needed to make a flower. When you realize that, you'll see that there isn't isn't really a flower.
Title: Re: the flower is ONLY made of non-flower elements
Post by: philboyd on March 25, 2016, 11:19:23 am
A flower sustains conditional existence, but is it a FLOWER until we label it as such? Are van Gough's paintings sunflowers, the tulips in my vase, the roses on the bush, FLOWERS? I don't know but it is fun to think about!
Thanks
Title: Re: the flower is ONLY made of non-flower elements
Post by: zafrogzen on March 26, 2016, 08:02:08 pm
What you call the "non flower elements" are what come together to form what appears as a flower. If you take away all those elements that make up a flower, would you expect to find a flower inside the flower? I don't think so.

"Flower" is a name or concept we put on the flower from the outside, to distinguish from other objects. It's not something inside the flower itself. There isn't another flower inside the flower.

Like everything, including us, the flower has no separate "self-element," inside it, which exists independent of everything else.

Furthermore, when you look at the flower, and smell the flower, you become the flower -- the color, shape, smell and so forth. There is no independent self, separate from seeing and smelling the flower.

You, the flower, the entire universe, are really just one being. Check it out!
Title: Re: the flower is ONLY made of non-flower elements
Post by: NoEssentialNature on April 12, 2016, 01:23:29 pm
I think this needs some context. Were you reading something in particular?

You could clearly take the petals & flower parts & dissect them and preserve them on a board explaing a flower, and they would no longer be a flower. Or bring together that sun & oxygen & soil, and them not become a living thing.

Are you grappling with dependency? Dependent origination? Or conditioned existence? Or self-nature?
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